How can people think homosexuality is a choice?

I doubt very few Christians would try and claim that homosexual urges are a choice but they'd argue that homosexual actions are a choice (in which they are technically correct).

I doubt you have any data to support this.

Well it's the official teaching of the Roman Catholic CHurch that makes up over half of all of Christianity and also the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Churches which make up the next largest group. On those figures alone my point is proved correct. My point would better be put as a minority of Christians believe that homosexual urges are a choice but my point still stands.

If you are Catholic you will no doubt be familiar with the words ot the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this matter;

CCC 2358: "The number of men and women who have deep seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible... They must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfil God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

I don't know why so many people have a problem with this stance... they seem to think differentiating between act and desire is somehow problematic?




The Catholic Church does teach that homosexuality is not a sin in itself, however it holds a position that views acting on an innate homosexual desire as sinful. (If for no other reason than because all sex outside of marriage is sinful and homosexual marriage is not possible within the Catholic church)

Let's not forget that sexual identities didn't really exist until the mid nineteenth century (Foucault, History of Sexualit vol. 1, 1979) when psycho-analysis started to categorise people based on their desires. Up until that point sex was an action - not a desire which would be pathologised and studied. So any analysis before these categories - and thus ways of understanding behaviour - were introduced is historically invalid. (As is the claim that there have been homosexuals throughout history; depending upon time and culture people would have viewed their acts entirely differently. The Greeks, for example, did not regard sexual attraction between men as homosexual but as pedagogical and would have resented the implications of us foisting our understanding upon them)

So to sum up:

1. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church do not teach that homosexuality is a choice.
2. Catholics and Orthodox Christians make the majority of Christians.
3. 100% of the Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe whatever their Churches teach.
Therefore the majority of Christians do not believe that homosexuality is a choice.
Therefore only a minority of Christians believe that homosexuality is a choice.

I deny that point 3 is correct. In fact, the majority of Catholics do not really believe in the official teachings of the Church. They do not, for example, regard homosexual acts as sinful. 56% of American Catholics belive that homosexual relations are not sinful. Is that the "official teaching" of the Church?

Please do not quote me unless you have actually read what I wrote. Nowhere did I claim that regarding homosexual acts but not desires as "sinful" is problematic. His line of argument however that what the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches teach is what their followers actually believe is completely false as I have demonstrated in my reply to him.

And since when was the American Catholic Church the be all and end all. And by the way, most of those Catholics believe that because they mistakenly think the Church doesn't teach what it teaches (bad Catechises), therefore you really can't count them. Secondly, the Catholic Church isn't a democracy. Thirdly in the areas where Catholicism is growing (Africa, Asia, Latin America) you will find that these teachings are applied to. Young Catholics, the future of the Church, believe these teachings far more than their parents did.

His line of argument was nothing of the sort. The argument ran that few christians would say homosexuality is a choice even if to act on it is. The supporting data was Catholic Catechesis.

Your line of argument is that if the membership of the church does not believe the teaching then it does not hold - but by that logic surely we have to admit the rightness of more extreme views (such as the one that homosexuality can be cured) based on the number of adherents?
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But they're views have no impact. They may not follow the rules but they're still the blasted rules.

Show me where I said that. You really didn't read my post. In fact, I never claimed that.

And no his argument was that most Christians believe homosexuality (yes homosexual desires) not to be a choice cos their Churches teach that homosexuality is not a choice & most Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox.

What I said was that this simply does not follow. For a whole bunch of reasons, Catholics may believe different things. He even said it himself. Catholics can be ignorant of the Church's teachings and so they may support different views that are contrary to the official teachings of the Church they belong. E.g. Most American Catholics (54%) do not believe that homosexual acts are sinful.

There's a difference though. Religion education is about making people aware of religion. We are already aware of homosexuality, we don't need to be told how we should feel about it.

If you would like me to extend a charitable reading of your arguments, perhaps you would do the same for Adam?

You oversimplify his argument - completely ignoring the distinction drawn between desires and acts - and also miss the salient point (which I feel must be deliberate); that the largest Christian Churches all adopt the same stance and it is only a few extreme sects who believe homosexuality is a choice or that it can be cured.

I'm happy to hear that, it means you'll never live in the UK. Happy days!

Please quote what I've written and tell me what charitable reading of my arguments are you doing.

...

His original argument was that he knew (by inference - i.e. without any actual data) that most Christians believed homosexuality (again, homosexuality = homosexual desires, when I am talking about homosexual acts, I explicitly mention the word "act&quot not to be a choice because most Christians are Catholics or Orthodox and the Catholic & Orthodox Churches teach that view (that homosexuality is not chosen).

My view was that you can't make that inference. Just because the official teachings of the the largest Churches are that homosexual desires are not chosen, you can't infer that most Christians followers of these churches believe that (which is what his original argument was). I gave an example of American Catholics not believing that homosexual acts are sinful (54% of them don't) when the official dogma is that they are. If he was correct, this shouldn't have been the case.

He tried, for reasons I can't quite understand, to say that I said or even implied that this means that somehow the Church dogma has changed. I just don't know what does that have to do with what we were discussing. Namely, what Christians, Catholics and Orthodox, believe. Completely independent questions which I didn't try to connect. In a word, he's strawmaning me to feel good about himself.

I doubt very few Christians would try and claim that homosexual urges are a choice but they'd argue that homosexual actions are a choice (in which they are technically correct).

Well it's the official teaching of the Roman Catholic CHurch that makes up over half of all of Christianity and also the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Churches which make up the next largest group. On those figures alone my point is proved correct. My point would better be put as a minority of Christians believe that homosexual urges are a choice but my point still stands.

So to sum up:

1. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church do not teach that homosexuality is a choice.
2. Catholics and Orthodox Christians make the majority of Christians.
3. 100% of the Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe whatever their Churches teach.
Therefore the majority of Christians do not believe that homosexuality is a choice.
Therefore only a minority of Christians believe that homosexuality is a choice.

I deny that point 3 is correct. In fact, the majority of Catholics do not really believe in the official teachings of the Church. They do not, for example, regard homosexual acts as sinful. 56% of American Catholics belive that homosexual relations are not sinful. Is that the "official teaching" of the Church?

Point 3 appears to be your sticking point, and yet nobody has claimed this apart from you (If I might be so bold - find me the quote where anybody makes the claim that that is the case or that Adam's point depends on universal adherence). The simple fact is that no data exists on this subject for most of the Catholic world because it is only in Europe and America that Liberal Catholicism has any theological influence. In the rest of the world the Catechesis is more strict and disagreeing with the church is not an option.

....

Point 3 appears to be your sticking point, and yet nobody has claimed this apart from you (If I might be so bold - find me the quote where anybody makes the claim that that is the case or that Adam's point depends on universal adherence). The simple fact is that no data exists on this subject for most of the Catholic world because it is only in Europe and America that Liberal Catholicism has any theological influence. In the rest of the world the Catechesis is more strict and disagreeing with the church is not an option.

Try finding a copy of Kaufman's "Why you can disagree and remain a faithful Catholic" in Spanish or Filipino

I hope PA never legalizes it. If they do I'll move to Texas or the south pole.

The poor gay penguins.

Indeed, but is it selfish that I'd much rather the penguins suffer than have him move to the UK and I'd be in the same country?