TSR Pagan Society

I reckon pagan beliefs and atheism can go hand in hand... I don't think you need to believe in a 'god' figure to be pagan, more just that there is power in the world around us. I'm swaying more to that direction myself- I'm contemplating the idea that all the deities are just constructs that are used by us to make sense of the world, because we have trouble comprehending it all at once, so split it up...

Just my strange little brain-ramblings. Probably don't make any sense! :colondollar:

Reply 483

Diety

2

Original post by Teao the Cat

I reckon pagan beliefs and atheism can go hand in hand... I don't think you need to believe in a 'god' figure to be pagan, more just that there is power in the world around us. I'm swaying more to that direction myself- I'm contemplating the idea that all the deities are just constructs that are used by us to make sense of the world, because we have trouble comprehending it all at once, so split it up...

Just my strange little brain-ramblings. Probably don't make any sense! :colondollar:

Makes quite allot of sense actually; even David Hume outlined how polytheism may have emerged out of the personification of things in nature.

Reply 484

Hylean

15

Original post by Teao the Cat

I reckon pagan beliefs and atheism can go hand in hand... I don't think you need to believe in a 'god' figure to be pagan, more just that there is power in the world around us. I'm swaying more to that direction myself- I'm contemplating the idea that all the deities are just constructs that are used by us to make sense of the world, because we have trouble comprehending it all at once, so split it up...

Just my strange little brain-ramblings. Probably don't make any sense! :colondollar:

But where does that power come from? Have you looked into Deism? You might like that.

I don't really see Paganism and Atheism going hand in hand. Spiritualism and Atheism, certainly, which is where you seem to be going towards. Paganism, on the whole, does seem to have some kind of deity behind it, even if only vaguely in the form of a deistic Lord and Lady. That said, it's constantly changing, so I might just be old fashioned in my interpretation. Even Wiccans, who tend to accept the gods as constructs, generally have their Lord and Lady or the One.

Original post by Diety

Makes quite allot of sense actually; even David Hume outlined how polytheism may have emerged out of the personification of things in nature.

An argument Christians have been making for a very long time. See Snorra Edda for a Nordic example of it. :yep:

Reply 485

SilverArch

12

Original post by Hylean

But where does that power come from? Have you looked into Deism? You might like that.

I don't really see Paganism and Atheism going hand in hand. Spiritualism and Atheism, certainly, which is where you seem to be going towards. Paganism, on the whole, does seem to have some kind of deity behind it, even if only vaguely in the form of a deistic Lord and Lady. That said, it's constantly changing, so I might just be old fashioned in my interpretation. Even Wiccans, who tend to accept the gods as constructs, generally have their Lord and Lady or the One.

Your post was very thought provoking for me, so thank you for that :smile:

I definitely would describe myself as a spiritual atheist. I feel a certain force outside me, which exists in all of nature equally, but I feel that deities are a way to personify that force and give it a form that a human can begin to understand. The Catholic faith I knew seemed to just put a form on that force (make it God) then put a massive structure and dogma around it. Is that force divine on it's own? I don't believe in a Creator deciding to make the universe..but could that force have always been there, just without a conscious face (the God I was taught about had a kind of omniscient consciousness)? I'm actually questioning myself here, not you guys. Questioning myself helps me sort my beliefs out. And tomorrow my belief will probably have alterred again :tongue:

I guess what I'm exploring is belief systems which let me find ways of feeling at one with that force, whilst rejecting worship of it. I use things like the tarot, lucid dreaming and so on as a meditation excercise to help me focus on either the force I feel, my own life and goals, or just to relax...I did dabble in spells when younger, but now i realise that was also me trying to feel connected and focussed. I don't believe you can manipulate energy through magic personally

I think I'll stick around this thread, if you all don't mind. I may not be pagan, but I feel more 'at home' reading this thread, than on the atheism thread which is pretty much devoid of all spirituality. I'm also interested in learning more about paganism in general, as an academic excercise. I'll take a look at some of the books mentionned earlier in the thread if i can find any in the library system. I'm especially interested in Druidism, as it's in the family history (I love researching my family history).

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 486

Original post by sollythewise

aren't all pagans/wiccans/etc. "out there"?

Not all of us :tongue:

While it's true that paganism does tend to attract a lot of oddballs, that's probably because pagans are generally more accepting of difference than mainstream religions - for example, there are a lot of homosexual pagans, because paganism doesn't teach that homosexuality is wrong, but that isn't to say that all or even most pagans are gay. Anyway, the point of my ramble is that I am pagan but I am normal(ish). :tongue:

I had a question for the rest of you folks: what do you think of the rule 'harm none' in general, and do you think it outlaws things like eating disorders and self-injury, and then I guess to an extent things like smoking and binge drinking?

Reply 487

Hylean

15

Original post by Etoile

Not all of us :tongue:

While it's true that paganism does tend to attract a lot of oddballs, that's probably because pagans are generally more accepting of difference than mainstream religions - for example, there are a lot of homosexual pagans, because paganism doesn't teach that homosexuality is wrong, but that isn't to say that all or even most pagans are gay. Anyway, the point of my ramble is that I am pagan but I am normal(ish). :tongue:

I had a question for the rest of you folks: what do you think of the rule 'harm none' in general, and do you think it outlaws things like eating disorders and self-injury, and then I guess to an extent things like smoking and binge drinking?

I don't know, you're pretty "out there". :p:

Harm none? I don't look on it as a rule, but just a guiding statement, and tied with the threefold law let's me know what I'm in for. After all, the smallest things could count as "harm", such as eating red meat or living in a region with heavy traffic.

Reply 488

Original post by Hylean

I don't know, you're pretty "out there". :p:

Harm none? I don't look on it as a rule, but just a guiding statement, and tied with the threefold law let's me know what I'm in for. After all, the smallest things could count as "harm", such as eating red meat or living in a region with heavy traffic.

Haha, do you think so?
Thanks for your viewpoint :smile:

I suppose it really does depend on what you think constitutes harm. How do you think the threefold law and harm none interact?

Reply 489

With the harming none, I just take it as try to be nice and helpful and kind to other people. I've never considered the self harm aspect, because I have luckily never been in a situation where I was likely to self harm, and I don't feel I have the right to judge the actions of others, so...

Reply 490

Original post by Teao the Cat

With the harming none, I just take it as try to be nice and helpful and kind to other people. I've never considered the self harm aspect, because I have luckily never been in a situation where I was likely to self harm, and I don't feel I have the right to judge the actions of others, so...

You're a good ...cat? :tongue:

And you think that self-harm is acceptable then?

Reply 491

Original post by Etoile

You're a good ...cat? :tongue:

And you think that self-harm is acceptable then?

I suppose I think that I can't judge on self harm, because I have no idea what it;s like to be in a situation where it seems a good idea. So i can't then decide whether it's 'acceptable' or not. In an ideal world, i'd love for it not to happen at all, because i'd rather people didn't feel badly enough about themselves that they would want to hurt themselves, however...

I suppose a definition of self harm can be pretty broad though... I overeat, so i suppose that could constitute self harm... and wahat about all the people who get tattoos, say, or even wax... that hurts! :tongue:

Reply 492

Hylean

15

Original post by Etoile

Haha, do you think so?
Thanks for your viewpoint :smile:

I suppose it really does depend on what you think constitutes harm. How do you think the threefold law and harm none interact?

Don't really think so, no. :wink:

Anything we do is brought back to us threefold, thus when we harm someone, it is brought back to us threefold. For me, "harm none" has to involve willing, premeditated and conscious intent to harm something, rather than you know, just living in a polluted area or eating red meat. We have to be wielding some form of a blade, metaphorical or otherwise. When we harm ourselves, we will only experience worse harm later in life or in another life.

Original post by Etoile

You're a good ...cat? :tongue:

And you think that self-harm is acceptable then?

No. Harm none is quite clear on that score: self-harm is not "acceptable". This is not me judging people who do self-harm, as they do what they do for various reasons and many are acceptable in my opinion, but "harm none" leaves no room for debate, really.

Edit: To clarify, when I say it's "not acceptable", I mean with regards to "harm none". However, I've already stated I believe that to be a guideline and not a strict "law".

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 493

sollythewise

1

Original post by Etoile

Not all of us :tongue:

While it's true that paganism does tend to attract a lot of oddballs, that's probably because pagans are generally more accepting of difference than mainstream religions - for example, there are a lot of homosexual pagans, because paganism doesn't teach that homosexuality is wrong, but that isn't to say that all or even most pagans are gay. Anyway, the point of my ramble is that I am pagan but I am normal(ish). :tongue:

I had a question for the rest of you folks: what do you think of the rule 'harm none' in general, and do you think it outlaws things like eating disorders and self-injury, and then I guess to an extent things like smoking and binge drinking?

it depends what the logic behind the rule is. if it because of some sort of social contract, eg. "allowing people to cause harm lowers overall happiness, and we want to maximise happiness, so to stop that happening, we ban everyone from causing harm", then self-harm should be fine, as long as it doesn't prevent you from participating in society as normal. so cutting your own arm is fine (as in it sticks to the rule, not that it is fine in general!), whereas binge drinking isn't (as it makes people behave antisocially and stops them being productive economically, as well as often requiring the NHS to waste money on morons.)

however, if the reasoning is that causing harm is essentially bad, then no justification can be made in any situation. this would include self-harm, but also restraining a terrorist on the grounds that "i might hurt him, and anyway he has a right to move freely".

i suppose you could say that you want to reduce the total harm done in the universe (by people, possibly). then we would have to work out if the psychological satisfaction caused by self-harm outweighed the physical damage done.

basically, it's complicated.

Reply 494

SilverArch

12

I try to live without causing harm to anybody/thing. Sometimes it's simple, like my decision to be vegetarian. Other times, it's confusing trying to decide if something is harmful or not

Does self harm ever bring any long term psychological satisfaction? I know short term you might find relief in it and a way to cope, but long term I think it will probably only be harmful? Most people self harm because they are already greatly suffering, but self harm is not a cure.

But defining harm is quite hard, IMHO. It's obvious that deliberately running over a squirrel is nasty and harmful, but there's such a grey area where something could be classed as harmful or not harmful by different people. What about BDSM? You might have a deliberate pre-medidated intent to cause humiliation or minor physical harm to someone, but if it gives intense satisfaction psychologically and strengthens your relationship...then can it actually be classed as harm? My gut (and head) says no. But someone could easily disagree with me!

Yep, definitely complicated to define what causing harm is!

Reply 495

concubine

Original post by Etoile

Not all of us :tongue:

While it's true that paganism does tend to attract a lot of oddballs, that's probably because pagans are generally more accepting of difference than mainstream religions - for example, there are a lot of homosexual pagans, because paganism doesn't teach that homosexuality is wrong, but that isn't to say that all or even most pagans are gay. Anyway, the point of my ramble is that I am pagan but I am normal(ish). :tongue:

I had a question for the rest of you folks: what do you think of the rule 'harm none' in general, and do you think it outlaws things like eating disorders and self-injury, and then I guess to an extent things like smoking and binge drinking?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE DIONYSIA WITHOUT ALCOHOL?!?!?11

I've never met a single 'pagan' that didn't appear to, at least in part, claim to be pagan because it's WACKY AND KEWL.

I'm nearly certain I've never met or talked with one that genuinely 'believed' in what they claim to believe in any way more than silly Twilight fans 'believe' in vampires and werewolves.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 496

Original post by concubine

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO CELEBRATE DIONYSIA WITHOUT ALCOHOL?!?!?11

I've never met a single 'pagan' that didn't appear to, at least in part, claim to be pagan because it's WACKY AND KEWL.

I'm nearly certain I've never met or talked with one that genuinely 'believed' in what they claim to believe in any way more than silly Twilight fans 'believe' in vampires and werewolves.

I think a lot of us began to look into paganism perhaps through some desire to be different (there certainly are people who are born into Pagan families though, I seem to recall a Druid knocking about here...) but I would hesitate to say that any of us were just believing in it because we want to seem different. There are many out there, mostly the 'fluffy-bunny' style of Wiccan, but they usually give up within a few months. On the flip side, you will find many of us, and most if not all of us here, have subscribed to Pagan beliefs for years, and many of us are very quiet about our religion IRL- we aren't doing this for the attention.

Just because our beliefs may seem to many to be synonymous with believing in Twilight vampires does not mean that they are. an outsider to any faith often sees the silly sides- after all, as Cyanide and Happiness has gleefully pointed out today, happy Zombie Jesus day!

Reply 497

concubine

Original post by Teao the Cat

I think a lot of us began to look into paganism perhaps through some desire to be different (there certainly are people who are born into Pagan families though, I seem to recall a Druid knocking about here...) but I would hesitate to say that any of us were just believing in it because we want to seem different. There are many out there, mostly the 'fluffy-bunny' style of Wiccan, but they usually give up within a few months. On the flip side, you will find many of us, and most if not all of us here, have subscribed to Pagan beliefs for years, and many of us are very quiet about our religion IRL- we aren't doing this for the attention.

Just because our beliefs may seem to many to be synonymous with believing in Twilight vampires does not mean that they are. an outsider to any faith often sees the silly sides- after all, as Cyanide and Happiness has gleefully pointed out today, happy Zombie Jesus day!

Eh. I don't see paganism as any sillier than other belief systems. But yeah, I do see it as silly, because like other belief systems, it is.

I still have trouble accepting that even the silent masses of pagans genuinely believe what they purport to believe. But then I doubt a great many followers of any faith sincerely believe in their deities or practices 100%. Most people do seem to be blessed with some degree of rationality, even if they try their hardest to ignore it.

Reply 498