What is the most fundamental subject?

I've read good arguments for a number of disciplines being the most fundamental subject in particular:
-Mathematics
-Computer Science
-Physics
-Philosophy
-Neuroscience

What do people on this forum see as the fundamental subject.

Reply 1

AtomSmasher

8

Maths, obviously. The only thing that precedes it is logic itself which is rarely studied as a subject much any more. Without maths there is no Physics, which means no Chemistry, which means no biology, which means no medicine and neuroscience and everything else that relies on the sciences. In that sense it's the most fundamental. It's possible to argue that philosophy is but it isn't very important nowadays and as a subject it isn't really necessary. It's the ideas and curiosity about the world that is part of philosophy that are an important prerequisite for the sciences and maths.

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works almost every time.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 2

D.R.E

13

Original post by AtomSmasher

Maths, obviously. The only thing that precedes it is logic itself which is rarely studied as a subject anyway.

No.

Reply 3

AtomSmasher

8

Original post by D.R.E

No.

What a brilliant rebuttal. I guess that's me put in my place.

Reply 4

Arbolus

13

The single most fundamental subject must surely be logic. Both maths and philosophy are arguably nothing more than different ways of using it - maths with numbers and philosophy with thoughts and words. However, of the subjects on your list, I'd have to put maths first for the simple reason that philosophy is rarely used for anything significant in modern times.

Reply 5

Classical Liberal

19

It is obviously philosophy. All the forms of understanding or knowledge derive from philosophy.

Maths, physics etc. are all underpinned in someway by philosophy.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 6

SubAtomic

11

Without good English you won't be able to read nor properly comprehend what has been written on many of the fundamentals on your list :biggrin:

Of course that is if the book you are learning from is written in English.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 7

Happydude

11

Original post by AtomSmasher

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works every time.

I began this with some scepticism, but it works. Started on 'tree'.

OT: Maths probably, but since I'm not fantastic at it I'm going to say philosophy!

Reply 8

Chumbaniya

17

I'm not convinced it's a productive debate. You just end up with conflict over what 'fundamental' means, or end up going round in circles. For example, lets say you try to claim mathematics is the most fundamental subject. Then someone tells you that mathematics boils down to logic, and philosophy must be more fundamental because it will ask the question of what it means to be logical. But then someone else will chip in that philosophy is really all about the way that human beings think, so it's all underpinned by psychology anyway. But then psychology comes down to biology, which comes down to chemistry, which comes down to physics. And of course physics is just mathematics that happens to be applied to the empirically observable universe, so we're back to the start again.

Reply 9

Raiden10

17

Original post by Arbolus

The single most fundamental subject must surely be logic. Both maths and philosophy are arguably nothing more than different ways of using it - maths with numbers and philosophy with thoughts and words. However, of the subjects on your list, I'd have to put maths first for the simple reason that philosophy is rarely used for anything significant in modern times.

Maths uses thoughts and words as well as numbers. Abstract concepts that can't be explained numerically. As a matter of fact, in the grand scheme of things numbers aren't even that important, depending on your point of view.

Neuroscience is pretty fundamental if you believe in "cancellation of explanation"; i.e. that explaining explaining something is the same as explaining something. I personally don't believe in that.

The argument for philosophy (in the modern sense of the term "philosophy", not in the Greek sense where it basically means "academia") being the bedrock kind of falls down on the "need to know" basis. Physicists need to know a lot of mathematics, or at least know someone who does. You can't really say that mathematicians need to know about philosophy.

Mathematics does have issues that might well be described as philosophical, such as the axiom of choice, or computer proofs, or probabalistic proofs, or what a proof of P=NP is supposed to look like. However these are pretty special to mathematics and don't really tie into any kind of grand philosophical questions. And if you widen the definition of philosophy enough to draw into its net these kind of questions, it's not really clear that it still counts as an independent subject, as opposed to the whole of academia all over again.

Of course medics don't really need to know mathematics. Mathematics and physics have had a large impact on medicine and this is only set to go on the rise, but medicine (for now) is largely independent of mathematics.

Oh and logic is studied in mathematical logic, in some forms, and in philosophy in other forms. There is in mathematics a two-way dial - results in mathematical logic can be used to prove results in mathematics and vice versa. I heard of a result in mathematical logic that was used to prove a theorem in number theory - it was something to do with sums of cubes, or sums of kth powers, or something like that. In any case logic can be studied from a philosophical or from a mathematical point of view.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 10

zaliack

16

Original post by AtomSmasher

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works every time.

Lmao, I didn't end up in Philosophy. Landed on a page with no links!

Reply 11

Kalliope

17

I'd say Philosophy. It's really the essence of what it is to know and learn. I'm not saying it's the most useful or important, mind, just the most fundamental.

Reply 12

Pen Island

10

Original post by AtomSmasher

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works every time.

Oh my God it works!
Is it weird that I find that really amazing?!? :tongue:

Haha

Reply 13

Tomato_Soup1992

14

Original post by Happydude

I began this with some scepticism, but it works. Started on 'tree'.

OT: Maths probably, but since I'm not fantastic at it I'm going to say philosophy!

I started with Katie Price. Took a while, but it got there eventually.

Reply 14

DebatingGreg

2

A simple way to do things (and not necessarily the best way) is to put another subject and put in the genitive if you. So you could've have:

The Chemistry of Biology

This states that Chemistry is more fundamental than Biology. On the other hand, I've not really heard of the Biology of Chemistry.

Then,

The Physics of Chemistry (or Physical Chemistry, as I believe it is more widely known)

The Mathematics of Physics (as many people have already stated, mathematics is the foundation of Physics)

The Philosophy of Mathematics

In short, all knowledge, reasoning and logic are pinned down by philosophy. In the Philosophy of Mathematics, it questions the foundations of mathematics itself. The same can be said in the Philosophy of Science.

It's not foolproof, and there are exceptions and overlaps in some of the areas I would suspect, but it's a good start.

So, as philosophy is fundamentally underpinning all disciplines (from philosophy of science to philosophy of mathematics), I shall have to say philosophy.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 15

DebatingGreg

2

Original post by AtomSmasher

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works every time.

And I thought that it was my own little trick, but it seems everyone knows it :frown:

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 16

RedDevilThing

9

I think people seem to have a different interpretation of fundamental. The context most people seem have considered is that of human nature and thinking. I would argue that fundamental refers to a context of everything that exists, i.e. the Universe. Therefore I believe the most fundamental subject to be Physics, the field that aims to objectively describe the exact workings of the Universe.

Reply 17

11flon

11

Fun Fact: Starting on any Wikipedia page at all, if you click the first link that isn't in brackets/quotation marks and keep following these links, you eventually get to the page 'Philosophy'. Works every time.

Haha! Just did this with "Janet Jackson", can't believe it worked...

In reply to OP, Maths.

Original post by Mr Ben

Maths is in my opinion, especially pure maths. To quote the late great Richard Feynman: “To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in. "

One of my favourite Feynman quotes: "Physics is to Maths as Sex is to Masturbation" (not really that related but ah well)

Reply 18

keyboard-warrior

10

To people saying its maths, well get this, ''what is maths?'', ''what is logic?'', ''Is logic totally infallible?''

This is why I think philosophy is the most fundermental subject, nothing is out of bounds, everything is opened to be questioned.

Reply 19

Raiden10

17

Original post by Pen Island

Oh my God it works!
Is it weird that I find that really amazing?!? :tongue:

Haha

Federer
Tennis
Sport
Physical Activity
Humans
Biology
Science
Knowledge
Philosophy

Therefore Roger Federer depends on philosophy for his success? :hmmm:

(edited 12 years ago)

What is the most fundamental subject?

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