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More student protests incomming...

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You lot sound like the grumpy old gits on the news that say we're all troublemakers! It's a very, very small minority who started any violence, but it's unfortunately them that the media focus on because that allows them to sell more copies or get more viewers. Anyone who actually went there to protest (ie, 99% of participants) did nothing wrong and the police massively overreacted.

Saying that it'll have no effect of Government policy is also a very dangerous attitude to take. It's always better to do something than nothing - at least you'll bring wider attention to the cause which people will hopefully sympathize with - helping get the Government out of office in the next election.

University Education should be free at any level. Raising the fees will only put people off going to University. Education shouldn't be the worry of the citizenry and the Government should find money elsewhere - by cutting pointless nuclear defense programs for instance. If it isn't sustainable then that shouldn't be our problem and it should be the Government's responsibility to make it sustainable. University degrees have become ubiquitous and necessary for a huge amount of jobs - indeed, most jobs that aren't behind a shop counter.

Of course, there are also the benefit cuts for under-25s. When there are no jobs, how the **** are people supposed to get by without unemployment allowance? Not every family can afford that extra mouth to feed and a lot of families will suffer as a result.

This Government has absolutely failed young people. The NUS is right - we do have a lot to be angry about. Roll on the next General Election and the inevitable massive Labour majority that will ensue. They certainly can't be any worse than the Coalition.

That said, a full on coup d'etat beforehand wouldn't go amiss.
Reply 21
Original post by ForKicks
People can. It is called student loan and grant.

No. It is accepted that most countries with top uni's charge their students. It also seems accepted that up to 18 is the right level of 100% state funded education.


Maybe to you it is acceptable -.- Like I said although there is funding available how can one deny that it does not put some people off going to university? If it didn't put people off going to university then there would not be student protests regarding the increase in tuition fees!
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 22
meh it'll be interesting to see what happens i might tag along for the ride other than that i dont see any point in this, the Government ignored y'all last time it'll do the same this time ... its simply pissing into the wind for all the good itll do.
Reply 23
Original post by Laalalala
Maybe to you it is acceptable -.- If you're going to challenge my view, you don't do it by simply expressing your own view... you need to challenge mine. Like I said although there is funding available how can one deny that it does not put some people off going to university? If it didn't put people off going to university then there would not be student protests regarding the increase in tuition fees!


The uni applications haven't changed much, so not sure people are being deterred too much. I still believe that the protests have a separate agenda. NUS do this every now and then to make it look like they are doing something for the money they get. I do believe NUS are the type to make a fuss for the sake of it.
Reply 24
Threads like this make me all the more glad i'm not going uni
Absolutely support the demonstrations and I hope that hundreds or more students from my institution will also be joining me.

The current fees system as a whole is unsustainable; the fact that fees have effectively been trebled is just making the loss-making aspect of it even worse.

Fixed tuition fees and the arbitrary cap decided by the government is such an unsustainable model for higher education funding that its existence serves only to show how incompetent the coalition really is.

Under the current system:

Those who fail to pay off their student debt in full cost the country and thus the tax payer by not paying for the education the state has decided to pay for.

The removal and reduction of grants means universities are left with funding gaps even when charging the higher rates under the £9k fees regime.

No consideration is given to the "value" of a degree (albeit I dislike the marketisation of HE).

There is a lack of sensibility for more flexible courses - part-time, distance learners etc.

It relies on a number of assumptions about the economy and growth in particular.

There is no protection for students whatsoever - future governments could change the Ts&Cs of graduates' loans to fix future economic issues.

Prospective students are put off - the prospect of what could be £60k debt from the Student Loans Company alone does make you question whether a degree is worth it or not.

It bears nothing on what exactly is offered by the university in return, and takes advantage of the high applicant:tongue:lace ratio.



Something along the lines of (not necessarily strictly the same as) NUS' Blueprint proposal would prove far better. When you graduate, you pay a percentage of your salary which falls above a minimum threshold based on both the teaching received during your studying and your annual income. The more you benefit from your award, the more you pay back, and thus the greater encouragement for universities to strive for excellence in teaching and programme delivery.

But what's worse is that the government time and time again fail to consult properly - with students, unions, and institutions. The same can be seen with the shelving of the HE Bill, despite it being promised to us 3 times; the proposed removal of funding for mature students undertaking access to HE and foundation courses; just to name a few.

The proposed changes in the HE Bill would have drastic effects, and as students, the most affected by the proposals, are being shut out of it, and without parliamentary debate and scrutiny, we'll also all struggle to lobby anybody to raise any issues with them.

On top of this, the government continues to completely ignored postgraduate students. Unlike undergraduates, PG students do not receive funding for their education, which is a clear time for them to be priced out of education. Some of the best teaching and research at PG level is unfunded by research councils, partly due to their public spending budget cuts, and it's a shambles that we should lose the brightest of students because they can't secure the huge loans required, they can't afford it even whilst keeping down multiple jobs, and they know that even whilst studying they will start paying interest and repayments at a commercial rate, meaning those wishing to go into industry are having to think twice before furthering their education because it's going to be a bit dent in their income.

NUS also represents FE as well as HE, and take a clear stance on the removal of EMA, rather than a change to the system.

And let's not forget - when students graduate, where are they going to go? We'd all hope to find a job, but the rising unemployment and diminishing job prospects through overly harsh austerity and lack of growth means that unemployment is a real concern for NUS and its members.

Yes, the government ignored us the last time we protested, but that's no reason to stop, in fact it's the complete opposite. We need to stand up against a government which is piece-by-piece marketising our education sector as a whole from secondary to higher education and everywhere in between. We need to fight against the lying and deceit rising from broken promises made both in elections campaigns and in coalition agreement. We need to make ourselves clear: we will not allow our brightest and most able to be priced out of education or awarded segregated qualifications allowing for greater divide.

Winston Churchill
Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.
Original post by hyakushiki1234
You lot sound like the grumpy old gits on the news that say we're all troublemakers! It's a very, very small minority who started any violence, but it's unfortunately them that the media focus on because that allows them to sell more copies or get more viewers. Anyone who actually went there to protest (ie, 99% of participants) did nothing wrong and the police massively overreacted.

Saying that it'll have no effect of Government policy is also a very dangerous attitude to take. It's always better to do something than nothing - at least you'll bring wider attention to the cause which people will hopefully sympathize with - helping get the Government out of office in the next election.

University Education should be free at any level. Raising the fees will only put people off going to University. Education shouldn't be the worry of the citizenry and the Government should find money elsewhere - by cutting pointless nuclear defense programs for instance. If it isn't sustainable then that shouldn't be our problem and it should be the Government's responsibility to make it sustainable. University degrees have become ubiquitous and necessary for a huge amount of jobs - indeed, most jobs that aren't behind a shop counter.

Of course, there are also the benefit cuts for under-25s. When there are no jobs, how the **** are people supposed to get by without unemployment allowance? Not every family can afford that extra mouth to feed and a lot of families will suffer as a result.

This Government has absolutely failed young people. The NUS is right - we do have a lot to be angry about. Roll on the next General Election and the inevitable massive Labour majority that will ensue. They certainly can't be any worse than the Coalition.

That said, a full on coup d'etat beforehand wouldn't go amiss.


Have you put any thought into how the government could realistically fund free higher education for all?
And your answer can't involve Labour and their pot of infinite money.
Everyone protests now whenever something happens which displeases them and the consequence of this is that protests become less powerful. If the students were to have one huge protest in every major city, then that would have an impact. Gathering in London to be 'kettled' by police won't do much.
Original post by Old Father Time
Everyone protests now whenever something happens which displeases them and the consequence of this is that protests become less powerful. If the students were to have one huge protest in every major city, then that would have an impact. Gathering in London to be 'kettled' by police won't do much.


Absolutely agree with regional/local protests, and on wider issues such as unemployment and too harsh cuts unions should work together to form a stronger voice. We should definitely have these alongside London protests!
Original post by DarkWhite
Absolutely agree with regional/local protests, and on wider issues such as unemployment and too harsh cuts unions should work together to form a stronger voice. We should definitely have these alongside London protests!


That's a great idea. Kill two birds with one stone AND have a bigger effect. Students, workers and citizens of all walks of life unite!
Reply 30
Original post by hyakushiki1234
You lot sound like the grumpy old gits on the news that say we're all troublemakers! It's a very, very small minority who started any violence, but it's unfortunately them that the media focus on because that allows them to sell more copies or get more viewers. Anyone who actually went there to protest (ie, 99% of participants) did nothing wrong and the police massively overreacted.

Saying that it'll have no effect of Government policy is also a very dangerous attitude to take. It's always better to do something than nothing - at least you'll bring wider attention to the cause which people will hopefully sympathize with - helping get the Government out of office in the next election.

University Education should be free at any level. Raising the fees will only put people off going to University. Education shouldn't be the worry of the citizenry and the Government should find money elsewhere - by cutting pointless nuclear defense programs for instance. If it isn't sustainable then that shouldn't be our problem and it should be the Government's responsibility to make it sustainable. University degrees have become ubiquitous and necessary for a huge amount of jobs - indeed, most jobs that aren't behind a shop counter.

Of course, there are also the benefit cuts for under-25s. When there are no jobs, how the **** are people supposed to get by without unemployment allowance? Not every family can afford that extra mouth to feed and a lot of families will suffer as a result.

This Government has absolutely failed young people. The NUS is right - we do have a lot to be angry about. Roll on the next General Election and the inevitable massive Labour majority that will ensue. They certainly can't be any worse than the Coalition.

That said, a full on coup d'etat beforehand wouldn't go amiss.



What in jesus flaming christ are you prattling on about? You don't have to pay a PENNY back unless you are successful. Even if you are earning over 21K, it is still about the cost of a hamburger per week...
Given the generous interest rate, the government is actually PAYING YOU to go to University...
Reply 31
Original post by Darkphilosopher

The university fee hike is unfair but the current fees are unsustainable. When will they get this through their heads? :colonhash:


Why are current fees unsustainable.

Over their lifetime the government makes around ten times what they pay for graduates.

Your argument is invalid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18353539

As for whether I support the march or not yes I do.

The idea that marching for unemployment would have no effect is probably true but only because the government chooses to cut cut cut instead of stimulating.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by OSharp
Why are current fees unsustainable.

Over their lifetime the government makes around ten times what they pay for graduates.

Your argument is invalid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18353539

As for whether I support the march or not yes I do.

The idea that marching for unemployment would have no effect is probably true but only because the government chooses to cut cut cut instead of stimulating.


That refers to the economic benefit of graduates' learning, not the fees system in its own right.

The fees system makes a loss, and will make more of a loss under the £9k regime, because so many graduates never pay their student loans off in full. It creates a deficit, whereas if the government implemented something along the lines of a graduate tax, it wouldn't; it would make money.

If the fees system were to change, the economic benefit of graduates having degrees would remain.

One estimate is a deficit of £200bn by 2020 (just 8 years) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18101729
Students can protest all they like. It won't make a blind bit of difference. It's not as though the whole new fees structure is going to be rolled back by any government.

And they all blame the Coalition for their situation. Not as though Labour are going to roll it back should they happen to get in. No, there was the usual plaintive opposition whinging, but secretly they were thrilled that the Tories had done their dirty work for them and all those students who were formerly Lib Dem supporters were now Labour supporters.

I bet less than 1% of those out on the streets the last time have ever heard of the Brown Review, let alone read it.

Of course, we could pile the blame on those who artificially inflated the numbers entering the HE sector with degrees that were either full stop completely useless or too specialised to be worth anything to employers, but that would be too sensible.
Reply 34
wow - 36 yes to 64 no.

How representative is the NUS of students in the United Kingdom?
Reply 35
Original post by DarkWhite
That refers to the economic benefit of graduates' learning, not the fees system in its own right.

If the fees system were to change, the economic benefit of graduates having degrees would remain.

One estimate is a deficit of £200bn by 2020 (just 8 years) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18101729


Yes but, if taken as a whole then the money generates by the individuals more than covers that lost through the fees system.

I always supported a graduate tax although I fully intend to be in a band where I would have the most to pay back.
Reply 36
Original post by OSharp
Why are current fees unsustainable.

Over their lifetime the government makes around ten times what they pay for graduates.

Your argument is invalid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18353539

As for whether I support the march or not yes I do.

The idea that marching for unemployment would have no effect is probably true but only because the government chooses to cut cut cut instead of stimulating.


Are you suggesting that because the government makes ten times what they pay for graduates, they should lower fees?
Original post by OSharp
Yes but, if taken as a whole then the money generates by the individuals more than covers that lost through the fees system.

I always supported a graduate tax although I fully intend to be in a band where I would have the most to pay back.


But what the calculation fails to take into account is what the contribution of those graduates would be if they weren't graduates under the current system. I suspect that in the absence of the system, they would still do rather well and contribute a lot to the state. Graduates don't give 100% of their 10x back to the state solely because the government loaned them £40-60k.

The country's deficit is huge, and we really can't afford to be loaning out money we don't expect to get back, particularly when there are alternatives which would generate income.

Aye, I would hope to be in such a band myself! :wink:
Reply 38
The NHS can barely be funded at the moment, so wishing for free higher education will remain a wish for a while. Until money can be pumped back into the system to gt the economy going properly again and the country is getting its way out of its horrific debt, everyone will just have to suck it up for a while and pay more. Yes uni fees have gone up, but so have train fares, bus fares, petrol, food, VAT.

It's crap and no one likes it, but if you look at is as a whole rather than just an attack on students, then you can see why it's been done. I don't support it, but I accept it and realise it's something that needs to happen so we don't end up like Greece.




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Reply 39
Original post by YB101
I've never been one for protesting but I most definitely will be there. I just don't understand why we must pay so much more with our future looking so uncertain

if anyone actually knows WHY the costs are increasing please let me know :smile:


Why on earth would you carry our such a significant action without knowledge of the purpose of that action? What does it feel like to be one of the balls in one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_cradle ?

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