Circumcision ban is the 'worst attack on Jews since Holocaust'

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Except this isn't a racist attack. This is simply an 'attack' on the Jewish faith/culture. I don't even agree with the word 'attack'. It's more of a defence of human rights rather than anything else. The holocaust was a racist attack, it didn't matter whether you believed or not. If you had Jewish blood you were considered an enemy. The two can't even be compared.

Reply 61

sukee

Original post by Giggy88

And muslims should follow the Sunnah, so what's your point?
The sunnah is the teachings and practices of the prophet saw and muslims are ordered to follow him.

*I loathe it when people counter-argue with "it's just sunnah".

Keep loathing then ...

Reply 62

Will Lucky

Original post by Agenda Suicide

It's amazing though how people say the government have no right to mess with people's bodies, but yet the parents can based off religion?

Exactly, the parents should have no right to make decisions the child should when they turn 18.

Reply 63

littleone271

Original post by sukee

Circumcision in Islam is encouraged, not compulsory i.e. it's a Sunnah, not a Farz.

Yeah I realise that but many muslim families take it seriously as a family tradition so many would take their children to muslim countries for the procedure if it were to become illegal in the UK.
Similarly to if we banned the burka, some women might just stop wearing it but others would probably move to a different country so that they could continue to wear it.

Reply 64

boba

Original post by Schmucks

Do you realise how difficult that is with a foreskin?! I mean, for starters it can't all be done one-handed. Has to be two just to pull the thing back (probably can be done with one but I imagine that'd look weird). You've then got to wash it. THEN you've got to pull the foreskin back, (as otherwise it'd be a bit weird again).

You ask a lot from us men, y'know. Tssk.

oh no

how dare I ask people to pull back a piece of skin and keep something clean that is expected to go in my (or someone elses) mouth or body. Shocking.

how hard you have it

Reply 65

Schmucks

Original post by boba

oh no

how dare I ask people to pull back a piece of skin and keep something clean that is expected to go in my (or someone elses) mouth or body. Shocking.

how hard you have it

Expected? My dear, we hardly know each other, i'd never be so up-front. :wink:

I'm glad you see the struggle for the common man, though.

Reply 66

User237126

Original post by Giggy88

Point noted.

But while Britain is extremely diverse and suggestions usually come from all sorts of backgrounds, that is often not the case in Germany.

Maybe the media is not the best way to express my point. But in general in britain the discussions usually range from the health regulations, over finance to education. Germans seemed to be much more concerned with more mosques being built or the percentage of foreigners that receive benefits. For example have you heard about the 2 year discussion over a mosque that is being built in cologne? The constructions had to be interrupted several times due to court hearings every few months.
One of the reasons for opposing the mosque was that the church 200 metres away had a smaller tower. This was a small church that is not even a cathedral or a dome. :confused:

It wasn't always like this, but in the last few years the discussions and critics seemed to be really one-sided in Germany.

Yeah but you could easily compare that with the furore about the muslim centre planned near Ground Zero in New York, could you not? And if we're talking about what has dominated the national German conscience recently (if there even is such a thing) I'd say Stuttgart 21 was a much bigger issue than the Kölner Moschee, and that had nothing to do with religion, and that's not even mentioning the whole mess with the economy and Greece, which doesn't have anything to do with religion either.

Reply 67

Giggy88

Original post by boba

you do realise that its not hard to pull them back right?
you could easily clean it before prayer. And I never said anyone was particularly effected by it I just said I don't understand that reasoning when its very easy to clean anyway.

Muslims pray 5 times a day. Imagine trying to look for a toilet every time you want to pray during the day. Among other points, the rules exists for convenience.

Another point people never think of, is that Islam is a religion from 1400 years ago which should make it easy for people to practise 1.) at all times 2.) wherever they are. So while it is easy in the current western world to have water to clean your genitals, that was certainly not the case in the last 1400 years ago, and still is not the case in other parts of the country. So to make it possible for everyone to practise the religion we have these rules. Maybe people should start to think more global.

Reply 68

Roger Mexico

It's barbaric, archaic, redundant, and serves no purpose whatsoever. It should be abolished.

Reply 69

Giggy88

Original post by Bobo1234

Yeah but you could easily compare that with the furore about the muslim centre planned near Ground Zero in New York, could you not? And if we're talking about what has dominated the national German conscience recently (if there even is such a thing) I'd say Stuttgart 21 was a much bigger issue than the Kölner Moschee, and that had nothing to do with religion, and that's not even mentioning the whole mess with the economy and Greece, which doesn't have anything to do with religion either.

Ok, now you are just pointing out things which have nothing to do with the point I made. Ground Zero is connected with the 9/11 attacks which are a very sensitive topic on their own. And reasons for opposing the mosque where not merely intolerance, but people being afraid of attacks and public conflicts.

I did not say, the only topic discussed in germany is about foreigners. Ofcourse the papers talk about other current issues in the country, the infrastructure about Stuttgart 21 being one. Greece is a global/european problem which is surely discussed in every country including britain.

The point I'm making (which I also made in the last post) is that Germany is more intolerant about issues concerning foreigners than Britain is.

Reply 70

boba

Original post by Schmucks

Expected? My dear, we hardly know each other, i'd never be so up-front. :wink:

I'm glad you see the struggle for the common man, though.

ah silly, I meant in general :smile:

Reply 71

Jack93o

all religion should have no place in society, ban away please :biggrin:

Reply 72

Schmucks

Original post by Giggy88

No one said it's cleaner. We are rather saying that it's easier to clean it.
Since the foreskin creates a second layer, it's much more likely for urine to be left and dry out between the layers, hence making muslim men ritually unclean. Muslims cannot pray in this state. To be frank, I have yet to hear about someone who complains about being circumsised and claims that it has affected his life in any way. Infact, I can't tell you how frequently I hear people saying "Why the hell would I miss it, it's just a bit of foreskin".

I'm not suprised this issue comes from Germany. They are known for their intolerance to other cultures and religions.

Could you not pull back your foreskin when going to the toilet?

Reply 73

Giggy88

Original post by littleone271

Unfortunately, that is the agenda of some of the people that oppose the burka. We talk about freedom of expression for over 50 years and still try to forbid people from wearing what they want to wear. It's a joke.

Reply 74

Giggy88

Original post by Schmucks

Could you not pull back your foreskin when going to the toilet?

I suppose it depends how urgent the matter is. :tongue:

Reply 75

boba

Original post by Giggy88

I'm pretty sure I could easily locate a toilet 5 times a day, since you know when your going to need the toilet isn't really predictable and there all over.

there was enough water for them to complete the rest of there wash before prayer. which either they would of had to do almost every time or they would probably be lying to themselves about whether or not they have broke their wudu since the list of what does is fairly long and not really made up of unusual things.

Reply 76

jackf1337

it is awfully tragic that in this day & age people still practice the absurd act of genital mutilation/circumcision.

Reply 77

Giggy88

Original post by boba

Please don't take this the wrong way but, the thing is I cannot really dicuss with you about these topics because you simply do not have the knowledge to make an informed argument. If for whatever reason muslims do not have water for ablution they can use sand and carry out the wudu with sand. You basically touch the sand with your dry hands and go over it with on your face and hands. You can not do that with your genitals as it is not part of the ablution and by all means, I don't really think anyone would want to do that.

Reply 78

B-Man.

Original post by Agenda Suicide

Haven't most of those been debunked?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090501005837AAtaIzv

Top answer pretty much puts that website to shame.

They haven't been debunked and certainly not in the website you have linked to. Circumcision does reduce:

- The risk of developing a urinary tract infection (UTI), such as a bladder infection.
- The risk of getting three sexually transmitted infections: HIV, Syphilis, Chancroid.
- The risk of developing penile cancer.

Routine circumcision in the UK stopped because most healthcare professionals now agree that the risks, such as infection and excessive bleeding, outweigh any potential benefits to people as a whole. Complications can include:

- Damage to the tube that carries urine inside the penis (urethra), causing it to narrow and making it hard to pass urine
- Accidental amputation of the head of the penis, which is very rare
- A blood infection or blood poisoning (septicaemia)

I am unsure as to where I stand on this ban though. On one hand consent to unnecessary medical procedures shouldn't be dismissed. On the other hand Jews will get circumcised, but at a later age instead, which means they will suffer more pain because recovery can take up to six weeks, whereas a baby would heal in a matter of days. However, I definitely support routine circumcision in other parts of the world such as Africa, where the benefits certainly outweigh the risks. (Research in Africa found that heterosexual circumcised men are 38-66% less likely to contract HIV than uncircumcised men.)

Reply 79

username321708

I welcome it. Anything that picks religion up by the ankles and shakes its indoctrinate, disgusting and unacceptable habits for all the word to see and shame is only a good thing. Dress it up as "tradition" or "religious freedom" all you want; physical mutilation of children in any other context than practising one's religion would have me in prison. I feel sorry for the poor children most of all, growing up having your head full of utter tripe must be hard to come to terms with when one starts questioning their religion, but to grow up with a physical reminder of what your parents decided was best for you surely has to have you feeling pretty bitter.