Feminism - Sexism?
Scroll to see replies
Everything can go to far. There are extremists in all aspects of life.
As reasonable people it is our job to identify when it's gone too far, and back away.
Then again, maybe these guys in question really were just douchey.
As reasonable people it is our job to identify when it's gone too far, and back away.
Then again, maybe these guys in question really were just douchey.
Original post by Emaemmaemily
I was about to type a reply, and then realised that Annoying-Mouse said exactly what I was going to.
So, I'll just add something on about the whole "opening doors for women" ect. I personally wouldn't ever expect a man to open a door for me because I'm a woman, I think that's ridiculous. But I personally open doors for anyone who is walking behind me at the time; any sex, race, age, etc. I just think it's good manners.
So if a man does it for me, I assume they are just being polite and that it's nothing to do with my sex, because that's how I think people see it these days.
Also with regards to hitting women. I personally don't think anyone should be hitting people unless absolutely necessary anyway (self defense), but I think it is particularly bad to hit someone who is considerably weaker than yourself and so less able to defend themselves/fight back. This, again, isn't about sex. Many women could be able to defend themselves against men. For me it's hitting someone a lot smaller, or a child, or a disabled person.
But again... If they are attacking you, then it's self defense no matter what their sex or abilities.
So, I'll just add something on about the whole "opening doors for women" ect. I personally wouldn't ever expect a man to open a door for me because I'm a woman, I think that's ridiculous. But I personally open doors for anyone who is walking behind me at the time; any sex, race, age, etc. I just think it's good manners.
So if a man does it for me, I assume they are just being polite and that it's nothing to do with my sex, because that's how I think people see it these days.
Also with regards to hitting women. I personally don't think anyone should be hitting people unless absolutely necessary anyway (self defense), but I think it is particularly bad to hit someone who is considerably weaker than yourself and so less able to defend themselves/fight back. This, again, isn't about sex. Many women could be able to defend themselves against men. For me it's hitting someone a lot smaller, or a child, or a disabled person.
But again... If they are attacking you, then it's self defense no matter what their sex or abilities.
Agree completely :')
Original post by Terence_A.
Yes I agree, but again, since feminism does have a singe definition - gender equalty - we are really talking about how people use the term 'feminist', which as I said, is constantly missused. However, if that is how people are using it and that is accepted, then I'm certain many feminists are indeed sexist.
Original post by Ray Bradbury
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y9_oklmHvU
A fine example of sexist feminists.
I think sometimes people end up repeating the stuff they learn in "gender studies" (and sometimes not very well as you can see here) without challenging it where it may be wrong.
Also good to see that loud mouthed trio, (who turned out to be union reps), showing that its not only men who, when caught out blagging, try to bully and shout their way out of it.
A fine example of sexist feminists.
I think sometimes people end up repeating the stuff they learn in "gender studies" (and sometimes not very well as you can see here) without challenging it where it may be wrong.
Also good to see that loud mouthed trio, (who turned out to be union reps), showing that its not only men who, when caught out blagging, try to bully and shout their way out of it.
Yeah, I think it's good to challenge what are still, unfortunately, societal norms, albeit lingering ones, like the whole 'gentleman' thing. I tend to hold doors for everyone anyway so it's not that much of a problem.
Original post by Suzanathema
Everything can go to far. There are extremists in all aspects of life.
As reasonable people it is our job to identify when it's gone too far, and back away.
Then again, maybe these guys in question really were just douchey.
As reasonable people it is our job to identify when it's gone too far, and back away.
Then again, maybe these guys in question really were just douchey.
Quite possibly. I'd like to think that most guys are fairly reasonable and I may have just seen an unfair representation of stuff.
Original post by Redolent
To be honest I think part of the reason this is such an issue is because it's called "feminism", which implies that in order for gender equality to be achieved it is womens' interests that are by far the most important. This was of course true a hundred years or so ago, and in many countries outside of the West still is, but the reality now is much more subtle. Many feminists refuse to accept that unfortunately.
Yeah, the term itself is so loaded that it's hard to escape, and your right when you say that many feminists still see this cuase as suffragette-like. But lets be fair, if this was ever going to change it would always be women who would have to force it through, not those it favours. I don't thiink that this is the case In academia though, where many feminists are well aware of the subtle and complex nature of cultural sexism, and many of them support the idea that any progress will need to be more gender inclusive.
Original post by Terence_A.
Yeah, the term itself is so loaded that it's hard to escape, and your right when you say that many feminists still see this cuase as suffragette-like. But lets be fair, if this was ever going to change it would always be women who would have to force it through, not those it favours. I don't thiink that this is the case In academia though, where many feminists are well aware of the subtle and complex nature of cultural sexism, and many of them support the idea that any progress will need to be more gender inclusive.
Original post by Redolent
That's true. Sadly most feminists I encounter online are the types who say things like sexism against men is impossible because we live in a patriarchy, or that by telling my friends that I find a passing women sexually attractive I am promoting a "rape culture". It gets ridiculous, and it depresses me that many of the people who say things like that are otherwise very intelligent or forward thinking.
Well, women quickly become their own worst enemy if they adhear to these views with no thought about the wider counterproductive aspects of them. I think these are examples of extreme 'feminists' which, for the reaons I stated before, are only aggravating the issue, even if their heart is in the right place. I think a simplified, gender inclusive set of tenets for everyone would be a more effective solution, but like I said, it's mostly women who have to force these through due to apathy.
It's a bit like when a guy refers to a girl as a stupid slut for rejecting him.
The way I see it, if you claim to be feminist without supporting equality (in either direction) you're sort of doing it wrong. Rather than the No True Scotsman fallacy, I see it similar to claiming to be Christian whilst not believing in God or Christ- it's just not possible.
I realise people might think they are feminist, but as equality is the core value, I don't see how they could be.
That said, feminism has such negative connotations now, perhaps we should go for a rebranding/ reimaging, to emphasise what matters to us.
I realise people might think they are feminist, but as equality is the core value, I don't see how they could be.
That said, feminism has such negative connotations now, perhaps we should go for a rebranding/ reimaging, to emphasise what matters to us.
Feminists justify positive discrimination and other ideas that apparently run counter to equality of the sexes by stating they are necessary to override the subversion of equality by "structural" or "institutional" sexism, in the same way as affirmative-action proponents claim it is still justified for universities and government departments to prefer racial minorities or operate quotas as this balances the effect of society's past and present racism to give all a genuinely equal chance (the same as if racism had never existed).
I don't personally support this but such views are common to several forms of identity politics: the oppressed group deserves better treatment than the oppressor to make up for discrimination still existing/ in the recent past. It foments resentment and seriously unjust to the likes of me who didn't choose to be white straight abled cis males.
A corollary is either that prejudice by members of the oppressed group has an entirely different sociological significance ("black people cannot be racist to whites") or it is less wrong as it does not feed into an organised system of subjugation. When not accusing them of outright woman hating, certain feminists accuse men's rights activists of fighting for an unworthy cause as "misogyny feeds into an established system of patriarchy, while misandry is an isolated phenomenon without such a power base" failing to accept that once equality is reached it would be perfectly possible for anti-male bias to become an integral characteristic of society giving rise to oppression. I can see misogyny and misandry as both in a state of flux in the developed world, with various degrees of hegemonic patriarchy remaining in force for most large populations outside of this.
Intersectionality theorists hold patriarchy to be the capstone of kyriarchy, derived from the Greek for "rule of lords", i.e. "domineering rule" so classify any action against any form of oppressive prejudice as feminist: this perspective has gained mainstream traction. The world's largest feminist organisation NOW has anti-racism and anti-homophobia as two of its six key principles right up with pro-abortion and passage of the Equal Rights Amendment. In part this derived from a belief that the Second Wave feminist movement was a movement of privileged wealthy white women, which others were unable to identify with, hence Maya Angelou and black women's leaders establishing their own "womanist" movement.
I don't personally support this but such views are common to several forms of identity politics: the oppressed group deserves better treatment than the oppressor to make up for discrimination still existing/ in the recent past. It foments resentment and seriously unjust to the likes of me who didn't choose to be white straight abled cis males.
A corollary is either that prejudice by members of the oppressed group has an entirely different sociological significance ("black people cannot be racist to whites") or it is less wrong as it does not feed into an organised system of subjugation. When not accusing them of outright woman hating, certain feminists accuse men's rights activists of fighting for an unworthy cause as "misogyny feeds into an established system of patriarchy, while misandry is an isolated phenomenon without such a power base" failing to accept that once equality is reached it would be perfectly possible for anti-male bias to become an integral characteristic of society giving rise to oppression. I can see misogyny and misandry as both in a state of flux in the developed world, with various degrees of hegemonic patriarchy remaining in force for most large populations outside of this.
Intersectionality theorists hold patriarchy to be the capstone of kyriarchy, derived from the Greek for "rule of lords", i.e. "domineering rule" so classify any action against any form of oppressive prejudice as feminist: this perspective has gained mainstream traction. The world's largest feminist organisation NOW has anti-racism and anti-homophobia as two of its six key principles right up with pro-abortion and passage of the Equal Rights Amendment. In part this derived from a belief that the Second Wave feminist movement was a movement of privileged wealthy white women, which others were unable to identify with, hence Maya Angelou and black women's leaders establishing their own "womanist" movement.
Original post by Steevee
What I've found is that any woman that goes out of her way to declare herself a Feminist is invariably actually a sexist.
Not in countries like India where you have to go out of your way for the sake of feminism, because everything, literally everything, is run by men. I read about female babies found in the trash every other day in the newspapers. Orphanages and adoption homes don't allow a family to adopt more than 2 girls because then the chances are the family may be planning on using them as prostitutes. You can't walk the streets alone any time of the day because there's a 50% chance of getting raped as a woman. Most of the domestic help that people have are women from northern states who've escaped from abusive male relatives. Just a few days ago a 16 year old girl was publicly molested and raped by 30 men, and a crowd of onlookers. Nobody did anything. Foreign women are abducted and abused all the time, and their partners are often beaten to death. And the Indian law is so weak and corrupt that these people hardly ever get the justice they deserve.
I could go on and on about how women in my country suffer. But basically, just wanted to point out that feminism is not invalid, and never will be. Without the feminist movement in other countries, all hope would be lost for countries like mine, which are heavily influenced by the western world. Anyone woman who declares herself a feminist is not invariably sexist. In certain situations, maybe. But not 'invariably'. It varies a lot from individual and context and personal history... just saying
Original post by Dinnes
Hahah good point ;P Ok I will admit I feel a little stupid now :P Something interesting which I realised lately was the whole 'gentlemanly' thing (opening doors for women, not leaving them in the rain on their own etc etc.) is actually pretty sexist. On here, written down, it's really obvious, but I guess when you're brought up with the whole 'You must not hit women but it's ok the other way round' thing, it feels like the done thing.
Hmm (musing pose)
Hmm (musing pose)
It's ridiculous in some ways.. If I'm sitting on the metro sometimes a boyfriend will ask me to give up my seat for his girlfriend (obviously trying to score +man points). I refuse, and they both look at me like I sprouted horns and flipping them off
In my experience, feminists seem to protest against things where they come off worse, but not where they're treated favourably because of their sex. And thusly I don't listen to them at all.
Original post by Architecture-er
It's ridiculous in some ways.. If I'm sitting on the metro sometimes a boyfriend will ask me to give up my seat for his girlfriend (obviously trying to score +man points). I refuse, and they both look at me like I sprouted horns and flipping them off
In my experience, feminists seem to protest against things where they come off worse, but not where they're treated favourably because of their sex. And thusly I don't listen to them at all.
In my experience, feminists seem to protest against things where they come off worse, but not where they're treated favourably because of their sex. And thusly I don't listen to them at all.
exactly, also, architecture, woo! ^_^
Original post by saachi
Not in countries like India where you have to go out of your way for the sake of feminism, because everything, literally everything, is run by men. I read about female babies found in the trash every other day in the newspapers. Orphanages and adoption homes don't allow a family to adopt more than 2 girls because then the chances are the family may be planning on using them as prostitutes. You can't walk the streets alone any time of the day because there's a 50% chance of getting raped as a woman. Most of the domestic help that people have are women from northern states who've escaped from abusive male relatives. Just a few days ago a 16 year old girl was publicly molested and raped by 30 men, and a crowd of onlookers. Nobody did anything. Foreign women are abducted and abused all the time, and their partners are often beaten to death. And the Indian law is so weak and corrupt that these people hardly ever get the justice they deserve.
I could go on and on about how women in my country suffer. But basically, just wanted to point out that feminism is not invalid, and never will be. Without the feminist movement in other countries, all hope would be lost for countries like mine, which are heavily influenced by the western world. Anyone woman who declares herself a feminist is not invariably sexist. In certain situations, maybe. But not 'invariably'. It varies a lot from individual and context and personal history... just saying
I could go on and on about how women in my country suffer. But basically, just wanted to point out that feminism is not invalid, and never will be. Without the feminist movement in other countries, all hope would be lost for countries like mine, which are heavily influenced by the western world. Anyone woman who declares herself a feminist is not invariably sexist. In certain situations, maybe. But not 'invariably'. It varies a lot from individual and context and personal history... just saying
Apologies, to clarify, I mean women in the Western world that go out of their way to declare themselves Feminists.
Original post by Dinnes
exactly, also, architecture, woo! ^_^
Woo!!
Where are you studying? Assuming that's why we're saying 'woo' at each other..
Original post by Architecture-er
Woo!!
Where are you studying? Assuming that's why we're saying 'woo' at each other..
Where are you studying? Assuming that's why we're saying 'woo' at each other..
Not doing it yet, starting a levels in september, but at the moment it's a definite option, and most likely the one I will end up going for at uni
Havn't done a huge amount of looking but I like the look of the Cambridge course.All feminism is by definition is the support of equal rights for women. That's it. I personally hear people blame their partners for the failure of the relationship and it doesn't seem relevent to gender in my experience; they'll each blame each other when things turn sour.
I don't support anything that is anti-men because it's just as wrong as anything that's anti-women, and it doesn't help the cause either because it turns men away from feminism and I would like as many people as possible to at least listen to the basic premise of feminism. I blame a lot of high publicity radical feminists, and then also the people that judge the entire feminist movement by these people, it's a shame only the stupid and extreme views make it in the media.
I don't support anything that is anti-men because it's just as wrong as anything that's anti-women, and it doesn't help the cause either because it turns men away from feminism and I would like as many people as possible to at least listen to the basic premise of feminism. I blame a lot of high publicity radical feminists, and then also the people that judge the entire feminist movement by these people, it's a shame only the stupid and extreme views make it in the media.
I do get the feeling that many who call themselves feminists today are pushing for the rights of women, not just equality. This is particularly the case in our generation, where women have absolutely no disadvantage, in terms of education, economics, etc.
However, what I feel is the issue is that many only see the injustices that they have personally experienced, without seeing the others. For example a woman may complain about the whole player vs. sl*t thing, but will have no awareness of some inequalities that men face, such as the complete lack of trust from society and assumption of ulterior motives and sexual predation.
However, what I feel is the issue is that many only see the injustices that they have personally experienced, without seeing the others. For example a woman may complain about the whole player vs. sl*t thing, but will have no awareness of some inequalities that men face, such as the complete lack of trust from society and assumption of ulterior motives and sexual predation.
Quick Reply
Latest
Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 day ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 1 day ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 day ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 1 day ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
