do the Scottish get a huge advantage?
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Original post by pshewitt1
yes but the only reason they are scared is because they have no idea what has happened they've listened to the daily mail and the sun and gone, oh no this is terrible. when in fact they are getting a higher maintenance loan to cover expenses meaning they will be less stressed and idealistically score higher at university. on top of this most degree's that are offered at universities will not give the chance of earning over 21,000 so they won't even be paying back that "debt"? it isn't even a debt it's a tax...anyone who had read through and understood what they are signing up to will understand that they are getting a better deal, the people who aren't doing this sort of thing shouldn't be going to university, they have shown a complete lack of intelligence and independence.
yes but the only reason they are scared is because they have no idea what has happened they've listened to the daily mail and the sun and gone, oh no this is terrible. when in fact they are getting a higher maintenance loan to cover expenses meaning they will be less stressed and idealistically score higher at university. on top of this most degree's that are offered at universities will not give the chance of earning over 21,000 so they won't even be paying back that "debt"? it isn't even a debt it's a tax...anyone who had read through and understood what they are signing up to will understand that they are getting a better deal, the people who aren't doing this sort of thing shouldn't be going to university, they have shown a complete lack of intelligence and independence.
It is not a tax, it is a loan. You might want to look into your "most degrees comment" if you're suggesting that these people will never bank 21k a year - if they stuck in at a retail position they could be earning that before too long.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you come from a family of means?
And I think your final remark says a lot more about your own intelligence than anyone else's to be honest.
Yes they do gain a massive advantage in a number of ways. First and foremost they don't have to pay £9000 in fees, which is very significant.
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country, both Westminster and Holyrood end up coining money for Scots. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more public money money spent per head than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
*why the negs? They are plain and evident political facts which point toward a distinct advantage, especially in the area of education
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country, both Westminster and Holyrood end up coining money for Scots. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more public money money spent per head than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
*why the negs? They are plain and evident political facts which point toward a distinct advantage, especially in the area of education
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by johndoranglasgow
It is not a tax, it is a loan. You might want to look into your "most degrees comment" if you're suggesting that these people will never bank 21k a year - if they stuck in at a retail position they could be earning that before too long.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you come from a family of means?
And I think your final remark says a lot more about your own intelligence than anyone else's to be honest.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you come from a family of means?
And I think your final remark says a lot more about your own intelligence than anyone else's to be honest.
no it works out like a tax... as someone like Juno(one of the moderators who was on my last thread) will agree with me. in the current economic climate going on %'s of 1sts 2;1's 2:2's and 3rds many many people will not earn over the 21,000 and even then they will pay less than last year when everyone else was so eager to go?
and no not really.
in what respect? if people aren't reading what they are getting into and the climate of which they're in believing solely media outlets instead of factual information they have clearly shown a lack of independence... and thus the level of intelligence generally deemed acceptable to universities.
Original post by pshewitt1
the clearing situation however allowing the Scottish to take British places before we even get our grades is a massive disadvantage, places are all gone within 2 days...
Well you also do have to think about the pure numbers of this though. http://www.ucas.com/about_us/media_enquiries/media_releases/2011/20110802 there you can see that in 2010 a small amount of Scottish applicants applied outside of Scotland in the first place, and an even smaller amount got places through clearing in England (<200 people). Additionally many universities in Scotland specify exactly who they have spaces for in clearing (Dundee Uni for example) and say that they are not accepting applications for clearing from those in Scotland/EU but are from those in the rest of the UK. There is also then the fact that many of us don't have the requirements for English unis, as most seem to ask for Advanced Highers which many schools in Scotland can't offer due to lack of funding and such.
Original post by Trailblazer
Yes they do gain a massive advantage in a number of ways. First and foremost they don't have to pay £9000 in fees, which is very significant.
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more money than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more money than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
thank you for clearing that up
Original post by pshewitt1
I'm not joking :L could you at least say what perks we have?
yes but the only reason they are scared is because they have no idea what has happened they've listened to the daily mail and the sun and gone, oh no this is terrible. when in fact they are getting a higher maintenance loan to cover expenses meaning they will be less stressed and idealistically score higher at university. on top of this most degree's that are offered at universities will not give the chance of earning over 21,000 so they won't even be paying back that "debt"? it isn't even a debt it's a tax...anyone who had read through and understood what they are signing up to will understand that they are getting a better deal, the people who aren't doing this sort of thing shouldn't be going to university, they have shown a complete lack of intelligence and independence.
yes but the only reason they are scared is because they have no idea what has happened they've listened to the daily mail and the sun and gone, oh no this is terrible. when in fact they are getting a higher maintenance loan to cover expenses meaning they will be less stressed and idealistically score higher at university. on top of this most degree's that are offered at universities will not give the chance of earning over 21,000 so they won't even be paying back that "debt"? it isn't even a debt it's a tax...anyone who had read through and understood what they are signing up to will understand that they are getting a better deal, the people who aren't doing this sort of thing shouldn't be going to university, they have shown a complete lack of intelligence and independence.
Maybe you intend to have a rubbish job, but many of us don't and will end up paying back probably £40000+ for the same thing people a year older have paid about £15000 (when you include interest). It's an utter joke.
The fact that you also seem to think it's fine that people who end up with a third and essentially wasted their time and money the rest of us will have to make up for is disgusting.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by pshewitt1
the clearing situation however allowing the Scottish to take British places before we even get our grades is a massive disadvantage, places are all gone within 2 days...
I think it's being made more of an issue than it needs to be really. Yes the get to go into clearing before other British students but they can only choose Scottish uni's. So in theory making more spaces available in the rest of Britain, it only effects you if you want to go to a Scottish uni.
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Original post by Astronomical
Maybe you intend to have a rubbish job, but many of us don't and will end up paying back probably £40000+ for the same thing people a year older have paid about £15000 (when you include interest). It's an utter joke.
The fact that you also seem to think it's fine that people who end up with a third and essentially wasted their time and money the rest of us will have to make up for is disgusting.
The fact that you also seem to think it's fine that people who end up with a third and essentially wasted their time and money the rest of us will have to make up for is disgusting.
No I intend as I have already begun my road onto being a broker... I'm fairly certain I will have paid back my loan in full as is fair to do so. You can blame this all on Tony Blair' ideal of 90% of students going to university... you've got to take into account that you will also never pay the full amount back unless you earn somewhere in the region of 48k for the full 30 years.
where have I stated that?
Original post by johndoranglasgow
I'm not in favour of independence in the slightest, but England gets its fair share of perks so you can't get all snippy when higher education operates in a much more reasonable way up here.
Also, Tories raised your tuition and they sure as hell didn't get their seats in Scotland. So how is it unfair?
Also, Tories raised your tuition and they sure as hell didn't get their seats in Scotland. So how is it unfair?
Actually the higher education bill was carried by the votes of Scottish MPs of all parties - I believe nearly all the Scottish MPs voted in favour, the labour ones even defying the whip to do so. If the Scottish MPs had abstained or voted against it would have failed to pass through the commons.
(They really should be forced to abstain from legislation which doesn't affect their constituents, it's completely undemocratic that a share of the votes on English legislation goes to MPs not representing the English electorate)
Original post by pshewitt1
No I intend as I have already begun my road onto being a broker... I'm fairly certain I will have paid back my loan in full as is fair to do so. You can blame this all on Tony Blair' ideal of 90% of students going to university... you've got to take into account that you will also never pay the full amount back unless you earn somewhere in the region of 48k for the full 30 years.
where have I stated that?
where have I stated that?
Ah, then that is fair enough. Indeed, I agree entirely about Tony Blair. Well, average at least 48k over 30 years, which I am hopeful I will.
You didn't state it explicitly, but I felt it was implied. However your comments here have given me the impression that you don't condone it at all. My bad.
Original post by Astronomical
Ah, then that is fair enough. Indeed, I agree entirely about Tony Blair. Well, average at least 48k over 30 years, which I am hopeful I will.
You didn't state it explicitly, but I felt it was implied. However your comments here have given me the impression that you don't condone it at all. My bad.
You didn't state it explicitly, but I felt it was implied. However your comments here have given me the impression that you don't condone it at all. My bad.
haha this reminds me of the anchorman moment of...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7tgX_Uaqs :P
good thing that is all cleared up, I'm far to libertarian right wing to be a Blair-ite, sorry if any misunderstanding took place , best of luck with the 48k a year thing though, I'm sure something will come up
Original post by Astronomical
Maybe you intend to have a rubbish job, but many of us don't and will end up paying back probably £40000+ for the same thing people a year older have paid about £15000 (when you include interest). It's an utter joke.
The fact that you also seem to think it's fine that people who end up with a third and essentially wasted their time and money the rest of us will have to make up for is disgusting.
The fact that you also seem to think it's fine that people who end up with a third and essentially wasted their time and money the rest of us will have to make up for is disgusting.
You'll only pay back what you owe ie fees plus loan. There is no graduate tax so you won't be picking up some layabouts bill.
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Original post by Shomberlon
You'll only pay back what you owe ie fees plus loan. There is no graduate tax so you won't be picking up some layabouts bill.
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
Who do you think pays, through the interest on their loans, for all the people who fail to repay it?
Original post by Trailblazer
Yes they do gain a massive advantage in a number of ways. First and foremost they don't have to pay £9000 in fees, which is very significant.
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more money than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
But it goes even further. In terms of governance, Scottish people get more public money spent on them than anywhere else in the country. I think I remember it as being something like 1/3rd more money than those across the border in County Durham.
The Scottish also have a disporportianate influence in our Parliament, when us English now have no say in theirs - the West Lothian question
The simple answer to that is Scotland produces over 1/3rd of the Uk's industry + oil... England still makes up the majority vote in Westminster which has the majority of the power however i will admit Scotland's position in Westminster is disproportionate compared to the other members of the UK.
sorry for going off topic.
Original post by The Mr Z
Actually the higher education bill was carried by the votes of Scottish MPs of all parties - I believe nearly all the Scottish MPs voted in favour, the labour ones even defying the whip to do so. If the Scottish MPs had abstained or voted against it would have failed to pass through the commons.
(They really should be forced to abstain from legislation which doesn't affect their constituents, it's completely undemocratic that a share of the votes on English legislation goes to MPs not representing the English electorate)
(They really should be forced to abstain from legislation which doesn't affect their constituents, it's completely undemocratic that a share of the votes on English legislation goes to MPs not representing the English electorate)
Okay so first things first, the higher education bill had parts about scottish education in it, not just raising tuition fees and thats why scottish MPs voted on it. So they wouldnt have been forced to not vote on it because parts of it extended to the whole of the United Kingdom
As for those talking about how we get more spent on his per head, we dont we get less than than london and several parts of the south east of england. We can afford free higher education because theres less Scots going into higher education than English. Scotland is about 1/10th the size of england in terms of population so we can afford some benifits that would be impossible to cover in England because of its size and the amount of people going into education. Also if youve read recent studies its cheaper to live further north and because our costs are lower thats why we can afford certain things
The tuition fees rise does have a negative effect on scottish students. One being they have less chance to get into scottish universities. For example if u have 2 students both same academically and statement wise and 1 student paying £8,000 for 4 years education and another paying £27,000 for the same. The latter seems a lot more attractive to a university.
Anyway on topic, technically yes they do but i dont think it would actually have that much of an effect on universities. Im not aware if they hold places till english students can apply or not
Original post by deek
Okay so first things first, the higher education bill had parts about scottish education in it, not just raising tuition fees and thats why scottish MPs voted on it. So they wouldnt have been forced to not vote on it because parts of it extended to the whole of the United Kingdom
As for those talking about how we get more spent on his per head, we dont we get less than than london and several parts of the south east of england. We can afford free higher education because theres less Scots going into higher education than English. Scotland is about 1/10th the size of england in terms of population so we can afford some benifits that would be impossible to cover in England because of its size and the amount of people going into education. Also if youve read recent studies its cheaper to live further north and because our costs are lower thats why we can afford certain things
The tuition fees rise does have a negative effect on scottish students. One being they have less chance to get into scottish universities. For example if u have 2 students both same academically and statement wise and 1 student paying £8,000 for 4 years education and another paying £27,000 for the same. The latter seems a lot more attractive to a university.
Anyway on topic, technically yes they do but i dont think it would actually have that much of an effect on universities. Im not aware if they hold places till english students can apply or not
As for those talking about how we get more spent on his per head, we dont we get less than than london and several parts of the south east of england. We can afford free higher education because theres less Scots going into higher education than English. Scotland is about 1/10th the size of england in terms of population so we can afford some benifits that would be impossible to cover in England because of its size and the amount of people going into education. Also if youve read recent studies its cheaper to live further north and because our costs are lower thats why we can afford certain things
The tuition fees rise does have a negative effect on scottish students. One being they have less chance to get into scottish universities. For example if u have 2 students both same academically and statement wise and 1 student paying £8,000 for 4 years education and another paying £27,000 for the same. The latter seems a lot more attractive to a university.
Anyway on topic, technically yes they do but i dont think it would actually have that much of an effect on universities. Im not aware if they hold places till english students can apply or not
Yes, but votes are carried out on individual clauses. The Scottish MPs were able to vote on clauses which did not affect Scottish voters. The voting statistics for each clause, and the full wording of the clause, is published on-line to be scrutinised in this way.
Scottish students chances of getting into Scottish unis are unaffected because Scottish unis (unlike English unis) are allowed (and required) to discriminate on place of birth - they have to fill places with Scottish students preferentially, then those from NI and Wales, then North England, and at the very last South England.
Also, we are still 1 country - I can select any part of England that will have less than 1/10th the population of the whole UK and that argument applies equally well to that part. By extension you can argue the entire UK should get all said benefits. It needn't be arbitrary boundaries either, I can go along city and country lines.
Original post by Astronomical
Who do you think pays, through the interest on their loans, for all the people who fail to repay it?
Those that pay tax. The interest is minimal, those that earn more will actually pay less because you're paying it off quicker.
You say you don't want to pay for layabouts but what about those that might might get a better grade than you but find it really hard to find a job in their field.
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Original post by The Mr Z
Also, we are still 1 country - I can select any part of England that will have less than 1/10th the population of the whole UK and that argument applies equally well to that part. By extension you can argue the entire UK should get all said benefits. It needn't be arbitrary boundaries either, I can go along city and country lines.
If you are going to make such claims at least use the correct term. Britain is one country (technically its the unifying name for the islands that the English and Scottish live on) and the UK (united kingdom) is 4. on top of this 'England' chose to acknowledge Scotland as a separate country when Scotland was given home rule.
And Westminster also has the power to do things to Scotland that Scottish mp's vote against, such as the nuclear weapons that are stored up here. and of course foreign affairs. Scotland has an Advantage other the other small members of the UK but not over England.
Original post by pshewitt1
the clearing situation however allowing the Scottish to take British places before we even get our grades is a massive disadvantage, places are all gone within 2 days...
And with that tiny section of a sentence you prove yourself a fool we needn't listen to.
Original post by Sly Blade
If you are going to make such claims at least use the correct term. Britain is one country (technically its the unifying name for the islands that the English and Scottish live on) and the UK (united kingdom) is 4. on top of this 'England' chose to acknowledge Scotland as a separate country when Scotland was given home rule.
And Westminster also has the power to do things to Scotland that Scottish mp's vote against, such as the nuclear weapons that are stored up here. and of course foreign affairs. Scotland has an Advantage other the other small members of the UK but not over England.
And Westminster also has the power to do things to Scotland that Scottish mp's vote against, such as the nuclear weapons that are stored up here. and of course foreign affairs. Scotland has an Advantage other the other small members of the UK but not over England.
Haha, if you're going to try and be a pedant, at least be correct! You've got your definition of "country" is wrong.
The UK is one country. I wasn't being technical on terms there, I was being completely truthful. I can select parts of England (the nation, the semi-arbitrary set of boundaries around a packet of land) that have less than 1/10th the population of the whole UK (The country, with actual international status)
And then I can apply your argument wholesale to that part of England as to why it should get all the financial benefits that Scotland (The equally arbitrary set of boundaries encompassing a pocket of land. Borders are really arbitrary, they don't match up to the historic separate countries before unification because those borders were undefined and shifted continuously.)
England chose to acknowledge Scotland as a separate local authority. To be a Country you need to be recognised by the United Nations (formal definition), have a separate government, head of state and embassies.
London is a better candidate for a separate Country than Scotland - it actually has all but recognition by the UN, whereas Scotland lacks its own head of state and embassies. (London has a mayor for head of state, an elected assembly with executive power, and its own Embassies abroad thanks to the 2012 Olympics. Scotland just has an assembly with executive power, it has neither a head of state nor diplomatic relations)
Westminster has Scottish members of both the commons and the lords who are permitted to vote in such measures, and if you hadn't noticed those are things that affect all member parts of the UK! The defining feature of democracy is that mandate is given to majority decision, not unanimous decision.
English MPs however cannot have any say in matters which affect only Scotland, but Scottish MPs can have a say in matter which affect only England. This is, at best a travesty, and more importantly unconstitutional.
(edited 11 years ago)
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