Minister calls for measures to help White Working Class Males get into University

David Willets the Universities Minister has said there is a worryingly large amount of white working class boy's missing out on university and has suggested that they should be treated the same as other ethnic minority groups; citing a huge waste of talent among this under-represented group in higher education.

Opinions?

Here are the links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jan/03/universities-working-class-white-boys
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256406/Minister-David-Willetts-says-universities-help-poorer-backgrounds.html

Reply 1

Super Cicero

18

How about instead of making it easier for certain groups - whether its minorities or poor white males or whatever - to get places at university even if they're not the most qualified person for the place, instead the government raises standards in schools in poor / minority-filled areas so these people can actually earn their place at university?

Reply 2

yeahman1

How about we stop all this forced 'equality' nonsense?

A truly equal university selection process simply admits people based on academic ability/potential alone; rather than socio/economic/ethnic factors.

Reply 3

simplelie

That doesn't make sense! Does it really matter if you are white or black,male or female in order to get into university? University applicants ,and generally people, must not in any sense be judged by the way they look,the colour of their skin or what so ever! I just don't get it... and by the way since when are 'white working class males' an ethnic minority?
This is just an old-fashioned view. Social classes do not even exist in today's society,so trying to help a specific 'class' automatically violates others' rights.
Anyone who has brains(and money in the case of UK's universities) will be able to study. If anyone intervenes and helps a group of people then we won't be living in a democratic state anymore,but in an idiocratic one!

Reply 4

Flowerii

2

Ugh, I saw this guy on the BBC news channel a little while ago.
"We are wholeheartedly against quotas of any sort, but . . ."
Oh rly?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9770472/State-school-quotas-for-universities-face-axe-following-protests.html
Then what about this one that is currently being boycotted?
Ultimately, a university place should be based on academic achievement and your ability to fulfil the criteria set out by the institution. You shouldn't be given preferential treatment of any sort based on your ethnic or economic background. If a university thinks you have potential to succeed, there are 'access to' and 'gateway' years offered by unis as well. A friend of mine really wanted to do medicine but didn't have the right A-level subjects so he did an extra foundation year.

Reply 5

bc001

Its simple. Have a quota for girls, guys, private school girls, private school guys for each university which is representative of the population in education as a whole. So 7% public school people (split between girls and boys), and 93 state school (split between girls and boys).

Although really the far better approach would be to stop so many people going to university, accept that in most cases a degree does very little for your ability to work in the real world, and make it easier for ALevel students to go straight into decent jobs with no 'graduate ceiling'.

Reply 6

bc001

Original post by yeahman1

How about we stop all this forced 'equality' nonsense?

A truly equal university selection process simply admits people based on academic ability/potential alone; rather than socio/economic/ethnic factors.

And a true university recognizes that socio-economic factors make a massive difference on the appearance of academic ability and potential. It doesn't take a degree to realize that someone who has been to Eton has had probably 6-8 times the average UK salary spent on making them appear as good as possible :rolleyes:

Reply 7

bc001

Original post by simplelie

That doesn't make sense! Does it really matter if you are white or black,male or female in order to get into university? University applicants ,and generally people, must not in any sense be judged by the way they look,the colour of their skin or what so ever! I just don't get it... and by the way since when are 'white working class males' an ethnic minority?
This is just an old-fashioned view. Social classes do not even exist in today's society,so trying to help a specific 'class' automatically violates others' rights.
Anyone who has brains(and money in the case of UK's universities) will be able to study. If anyone intervenes and helps a group of people then we won't be living in a democratic state anymore,but in an idiocratic one!

University admissions aren't democratic...

Reply 8

Oschene23

OP

14

Original post by simplelie

and by the way since when are 'white working class males' an ethnic minority?

Sorry the phrasing I used is a bit confusing, obviously white working class males are not an ethnic minority.

However, regarding your argument, classes may not officially exist, but there is a ever-wider gap between the rich and the poor, and everyone knows that basing admissions solely on academic ability is misleading as there a really good schools and really bad schools, and the good schools tend to be (Grammars/Private Schools) and the bad schools (Comps), so it isn't really an equal chance of getting into univeristy.

Ethnic Minorities get a leg up due to quotas in governmental organisations/ bursaries availabe at certain univeristy institutions already, surely this shoud be extended to poor whites too.

What really confuses me is why is a rich black student more in need of a leg up than a poor white student, rather strange.

Reply 9

Aeschylus

17

Original post by JackM95

David Willets the Universities Minister has said there is a worryingly large amount of white working class boy's missing out on university and has suggested that they should be treated the same as other ethnic minority groups; citing a huge waste of talent among this under-represented group in higher education.

Opinions?

Here are the links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jan/03/universities-working-class-white-boys
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256406/Minister-David-Willetts-says-universities-help-poorer-backgrounds.html

People going on about equality are often missing the point. While people should be treated equally at university, not all applications are equal. While the prosperous, leafy comprehensive student whose personal statement has been seen by several tutors, whose parents have gone to university and so can advise him on it, who sees university education as a natural extension of school, might on paper seem better qualified and able than the working class boy whose family has no experience of university education, regard the debt with suspicion and fear and is not inculcated in a conducive educational atmosphere, does that mean that the first candidate is better or that they have been trained to jump through more hoops and say all the right words to appeal to admissions officers?

There was a lad on my course, who was a good friend, whose mother had never gone to university, qualified for free school meals and received the maximum possible univeristy grant, went to one of the roughest schools in Wales, and missed his offer for her course. The university allowed him in, and he got one of the highest firsts in the year. If they'd rigidly stuck to their rules he'd have been rejected, despite the fact that many on my course, very well educated if you looked at their GCSE and A-Level scores, simply either underperformed at degree level or simply were at a level beyond their ability with the work demanded of them. As it is now my friend's in a very well paying graduate job. It's a matter of flexibility.

Quotas are not a good idea.

However it is clear that the quality of schooling you are likely to receive varies massively depending on your socio-economic background and it is also clear that the quality of said schooling massively influences your final grades: in some schools it is largely unheard for anyone to get an A whereas in others it is the done thing. If this is not the case then why do many parents go to such lengths to ensure that their children get into particular schools?

Most universities do take this into account when making offers. Edinburgh, for example, gave pupils from my school a much lower offer than those from private ones.

From my experience, it is not that working class white males are receiving rejections from universities, but rather that they are not even applying to them as they either have little interest or did not continue with education post 16.

Reply 11

yeahman1

Original post by bc001

And a true university recognizes that socio-economic factors make a massive difference on the appearance of academic ability and potential. It doesn't take a degree to realize that someone who has been to Eton has had probably 6-8 times the average UK salary spent on making them appear as good as possible :rolleyes:

That is nothing to do with class or ethnicity; what you are referring to is quality of education. (Granted, that is closely linked to class in the case of public/private schools).

Reply 12

bc001

Original post by yeahman1

That is nothing to do with class or ethnicity; what you are referring to is quality of education. (Granted, that is closely linked to class in the case of public/private schools).

So as the two are inextricably linked it is everything to do with class and money lol.

Reply 13

yeahman1

Original post by bc001

Its simple. Have a quota for girls, guys, private school girls, private school guys for each university which is representative of the population in education as a whole. So 7% public school people (split between girls and boys), and 93 state school (split between girls and boys).

How about picking people based on exam and interview performance? You want to potentially give places to candidates who haven't earned them, giving places away based on what sort of school they've come from, or what sex they are?

The best candidates should be given places, end of.

Reply 14

yeahman1

Original post by bc001

So as the two are inextricably linked it is everything to do with class and money lol.

But universities should pick based on academic ability/potential, why should how this was achieved by the student matter?

A university is supposed to pick the best candidates, not the worst off.

Reply 15

bc001

Original post by yeahman1

But universities should pick based on academic ability/potential, why should how this was achieved by the student matter?

A university is supposed to pick the best candidates, not the worst off.

Because it is a false indicator of potential if there is a vast difference in the method of achievement.

Reply 16

yeahman1

Original post by bc001

Because it is a false indicator of potential if there is a vast difference in the method of achievement.

You think someone can have a poor education for 18 years and still have more potential than someone who has had a world class one? Don't be ridiculous.

Reply 17

Jack93o

15

Original post by Super Cicero

How about instead of making it easier for certain groups - whether its minorities or poor white males or whatever - to get places at university even if they're not the most qualified person for the place, instead the government raises standards in schools in poor / minority-filled areas so these people can actually earn their place at university?

good idea, but that will never happen or that it will take decades

in the mean time, the government has to do something to even out the playing field

Reply 18

abc:)

22

Original post by JackM95

David Willets the Universities Minister has said there is a worryingly large amount of white working class boy's missing out on university and has suggested that they should be treated the same as other ethnic minority groups; citing a huge waste of talent among this under-represented group in higher education.

Opinions?

Here are the links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2013/jan/03/universities-working-class-white-boys
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256406/Minister-David-Willetts-says-universities-help-poorer-backgrounds.html

Why white males? Why not working class in general? There are plenty of white males at university. The working class in general are at a disadvantage, women and ethnic minorities included.

Also I think the way to enable these people to reach higher education is through better secondary and further education. Some schools are absolutely appalling.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 19

TimmonaPortella

21

Original post by Super Cicero

How about instead of making it easier for certain groups - whether its minorities or poor white males or whatever - to get places at university even if they're not the most qualified person for the place, instead the government raises standards in schools in poor / minority-filled areas so these people can actually earn their place at university?

Exactly. Excellent post. Would rep multiple times if possible.

Original post by bc001

Its simple. Have a quota for girls, guys, private school girls, private school guys for each university which is representative of the population in education as a whole. So 7% public school people (split between girls and boys), and 93 state school (split between girls and boys).

Yeah... except that's completely retarded. You'd utterly destroy meritocracy; in a quest for "equality" you'd put in place absolute barriers to keep out people who could be the best candidates. This is true of all quota systems in this context.

Original post by Jack93o

in the mean time, the government has to do something to even out the playing field

Better to allow a game to take place upon an uneven playing field than to declare one team the best without any competition.

(edited 11 years ago)

Minister calls for measures to help White Working Class Males get into University

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