Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Being Scottish born and bred and having moved to England for a job recently I'm beginning to at least entertain the independence angle and hear it out, whereas before I was steadfastly against it. I still think it would be a monumentally bad idea long term, but I can at least see why people might be taken in.

England really is a whole different world, and it's become apparent that most of the English saying Scotland should go independent are jealous of some of the nice little perks Holyrood have introduced while their local Borough/County Council and/or expenses cheating MP ignores them. This is a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face and it comes from the same people bleating on about getting a proper English Parliament and turning the House of Commons into some kind of much smaller institution dealing with all issues that affect the entire UK e.g. defence.

Oh well, I won't get a vote anyway unless I move back up north. It probably will happen but not before 2014 and the referendum.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 81

bov

its a bad thing for sure. Stay together, stronger and just general history and shared heritage we all share why stop? who's next wales?...

Reply 82

Stramala

Original post by marcusfox

Yes, you've nailed your colours to the mast with that one your motivations for independence are nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the anti-English chip on your shoulder.

I can tolerate all the other nonsense but this is a step too far. What are you insinuating here, that I'm xenophobic? Nonsense. I'm not anti-English, I'm anti-Conservative. I didn't realise that I wasn't allowed to have a politically aligned argument in a discussion about politics. I'd be happy having an independent country that the north of England was a part of.

People should have freedom to choose. But ignoring the complete and utter lack of support in Scotland for the government currently in charge in England, which the majority of this country voted against in the UK wide elections, is just ignoring the wishes of the people. I think any region should have the right to vote if they want to be independent or not. Wales should be given the right to have a referendum if they so wished. Where is the freedom in being told that you can or can't make your own decisions based on what someone else entirely wants?

Why are you so determined to impose a political culture we don't want on Scotland? I'll even be generous and use the total amount of votes cast for the Conservatives in all Scottish constituencies in the 2010 election, rather than just be cheap and only point out they only won 1 seat in the entire country. They scored 16.7% of the nationwide vote. 412,855. Up almost one percent in fact, thanks to the collapse of the Lib Dems. Not an insignificant amount, but not even close to representing a general consensus of what Scotland wants. People who might normally vote SNP in Scottish elections will switch to Labour instead, to ensure they secure enough seats to defeat the Conservatives (this is an entire accurate statement based on first hand evidence). In fact, Labour's performance in Scotland was the most dominant of a single party in any country within the United Kingdom in 2011. If that isn't emphatic proof of Scotland's people having a clear general direction I don't know what is. And that direction is in direct conflict with Conservative policy.

Reply 83

sevchenko

Original post by Stramala

What are you talking about ? You shouldn't hand out referendums on Independence like candy, If a Independence has popular support then a referendum should be initiated. In 1997 only 50.3 % of Welsh voters said yes for an assembly. So just because of your ideas on super democracy means we should change our constitutional instability

Reply 84

marcusfox

Original post by Stramala

I can tolerate all the other nonsense but this is a step too far. What are you insinuating here, that I'm xenophobic? Nonsense. I'm not anti-English, I'm anti-Conservative.

When people who primarily identify their nationality as belonging to one the other countries in the Union rather than the UK express an opinion for independence based not on the economic benefits but on an opposition to an English monarchy who clearly contributes more to the economy than it receives in subsidy, no matter how much they try to dress it up otherwise, that reeks of being anti-English.

In any case, you've had a SCOTTISH prime minister in Westminster for a good while before the current one, and not once has he put the question of Scottish independence on the table.

Salmond and the rest are pushing a nationalistic, anglophobic agenda to fuel their own ego, but without ever explaining the huge risks involved, which is not about getting away from the UK, but from the English.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 85

L i b

Original post by Stramala

People should have freedom to choose. But ignoring the complete and utter lack of support in Scotland for the government currently in charge in England, which the majority of this country voted against in the UK wide elections, is just ignoring the wishes of the people.

No it isn't. It is taking full account of the wishes of the British people, which is what is being represented in a national election. Once again, I don't know why Nationalists seem to struggle to understand basic democracy.

In virtually every country there are areas where certain parties are more or less popular. I remind you, however, in the last general election the UK governing parties had virtually double the support of the nationalists. When Salmond swept to power on a "landslide" in 2011, it was on much the same number of votes that the Conservatives and Lib Dems had in 2010.

I think any region should have the right to vote if they want to be independent or not. Wales should be given the right to have a referendum if they so wished. Where is the freedom in being told that you can or can't make your own decisions based on what someone else entirely wants?

Define "region", because to me this sounds like an inherently discriminatory collective "right".

Why are you so determined to impose a political culture we don't want on Scotland? I'll even be generous and use the total amount of votes cast for the Conservatives in all Scottish constituencies in the 2010 election, rather than just be cheap and only point out they only won 1 seat in the entire country. They scored 16.7% of the nationwide vote. 412,855. Up almost one percent in fact, thanks to the collapse of the Lib Dems.

The Conservatives are not the only part of government.

Reply 86

Bronco2012

Original post by emmarussell55

Scotland has to become independent for the sake of is own economy! The measly 54 MPs elected from scotland will never make a difference in who gets in power considering from London and down further in the south east have 129 MPs! We are getting NO say in the way or economy is run cause our votes don't matter to the public school boys in downing st. The Tories are going to pass more and more legislation allowing the rich to get richer and poor to get poorer, even though its the multimillionaire bankers who caused this mess, not labour! Not to mention trying to convince us to get out of the EU and lose the best political and financial safety net in the world! Also, us Scots get given too much from Westminster? Do we hell! We put in more than we get back! Scotland will come out better in 2014, then we'll see how England, Wales and Northern Ireland do with a permanent Tory government that do not care about 90% of the population.
From here we can only go up ALBA GU BRATH!!!!!!

This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

It's funny because Scotland is going to vote no.

Reply 87

marcusfox

Original post by L i b

Define "region", because to me this sounds like an inherently discriminatory collective "right".

It is actually ironic, because if Scotland were to secure independence, Shetland might as well do so after the event, after all, just look at all those natural resources in their 'territorial waters'

Reply 88

Stramala

Before venturing into this thread I was still undecided which way to vote. The hostile and overbearing nature of unionists has pushed me off the fence now though. Thanks everyone, my mind is made up for the vote now. I don't want to be part of a country where your political ideologies have any sort of validity.

What the trolls here don't seem to get, is that I couldn't give two ****s about the SNP. I didn't vote for them in either general election. I was not a nationalist at all. I was willing to listen both sides of the argument. And now I've heard the voices of the pro-union sect, I have the desire to run away from it as fast as possible. I can't believe I live in the same country as such oppressive people. Hopefully that won't be the case two years from now.

Reply 89

Aj12

Original post by Stramala

So you made a choice that will affect your nation for decades on the basis of a few angry people on the internet?

Reply 90

Joeman560

Original post by Stramala

What a clown, lmao

Reply 91

L i b

Original post by Stramala

Before venturing into this thread I was still undecided which way to vote. The hostile and overbearing nature of unionists has pushed me off the fence now though.

Yeah, right. Firstly, if you genuinely did make up your political opinions on the basis of the personalities of a handful of contributors to an online forum, you'd be possibly the biggest ****ing idiot I'd ever encountered. But you're not. You're using it as a rhetorical point when your mind was already firmly made up - that much is obvious to everyone. That you think you can fool anybody demonstrates you are still an idiot.

Your first post on this thread betrays that you are not just a Scottish nationalist, but one pretty far beyond even what the SNP is - indeed, a left-wing republican nationalist. We've all had rather enough of your silly rhetoric and facile arguments.

Reply 92

marcusfox

Original post by Stramala

Your mind was made up already. People were telling you what you didn't want to hear and you didn't care to listen, and you took it as some sort of anti-Scotland argument.

Indeed no one was arguing with you until your first post on this thread filled with silly justifications for independence, which pretty much nailed you to the nationalist side of the fence without need for any discussion.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 93

Maths Tutor

Original post by marcusfox

And of course Salmond has only a purely economic motive for choosing June 2014 :rolleyes:

What motive does Cameron have for 'celebrating' in 2014 the centenary of the START of a war that killed millions?

(For your information, the Scottish Independence referendum is scheduled for the AUTUMN of 2014.)

Reply 94

Maths Tutor

Original post by Maths Tutor

The anti-independence campaign can scaremonger as much as it likes, but it is not rocket science to conclude that Scotland has much more than adequate resources for its 5 million residents to be better off than they are now.

Original post by marcusfox

Conclude? And how can they do that if the economic question has not been answered? Crystal ball perhaps?

The economic question was answered by the McCrone report which was kept hidden from the Scottish people by the Conservative-Labour-LibDem anti-Scottish Independence Axis.

The economic question was answered when the Scottish people elected an unprecedented SNP majority parliament under proportional representation in 2011 because of their ECONOMIC competence even while running Scotland as a minority government with limited powers.

But why are you so worried about Scotland in the East Midlands of England? Why don't you start concentrating your mind on the 'economic question' of an England independent from the EU?

After all, all of you in the anti-Scottish Independence Axis are pretty sure that Scotland will not vote for Independence.

In contrast, all the indications are that England WILL vote to become independent from the EU.

Reply 95

marcusfox

Original post by Maths Tutor

I wasn't aware that Cameron was celebrating the start of the war. :rolleyes:

The Scottish devolution referendum in 1997 was carried out by the Labour party on the 700th anniversary (to the day) of the Battle of Stirling Bridge, which was an equally iconic battle fought by Wallace. The choice of this date was clearly also an astonishing coincidence.

Do you happen to know precisely what date in autumn?

Reply 96

ch0llima

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21211931

Death warrant signed. Even the thickest of anti-English bigots won't root for this. So much for "independence", frying pan and fire springs to mind.

Reply 97

L i b

Original post by Maths Tutor

It's rather odd that you would cast what is officially a commemoration as a celebration. Anyway, you'd be quite wrong if you thought the UK Government did that out of concern for the Scottish referendum. You're confusing Scotland with the centre of the universe here.

Original post by Maths Tutor

The economic question was answered by the McCrone report which was kept hidden from the Scottish people by the Conservative-Labour-LibDem anti-Scottish Independence Axis.

Ah, the great Nationalist fib.

The "McCrone Report" was a cobbling together of some statistics and a bit of political analysis. The statistics were in the public domain. As it happens, the statistics were wrong: they were, in fact, overly optimistic.

As for "hidden" - it was advice to Ministers from the civil service. That is routinely hidden. It has nothing to do with the political parties... and especially not the Liberal Democrats...

The economic question was answered when the Scottish people elected an unprecedented SNP majority parliament under proportional representation

You can hardly call a majority government proportional if it was elected with less than half of the votes.

In contrast, all the indications are that England WILL vote to become independent from the EU.

Then the Scots Nats have some very big questions to answer about how they foresee us prospering if we are no longer in a single market with our nearest neighbour and the place where the vast majority of our exports go.

Do you not agree that independence would lose some of its lustre, even among relatively committed supporters, if it mean customs posts at Gretna, tariffs on goods and so forth? Do you not think that it would then be far more difficult to secure SNP policy commitments like using Sterling between both states?

Reply 98

s.a.u

Original post by Jordan_1

One good thing about Independence is that Scotland would no longer have to get dragged into these pointless wars just to asslick the Americans.

Don't be so sure, a remote, newly independent country would suck up to a more powerful one in any way it can. If Scotland gets independence, do not be surprised when they volunteer to jump into the first war proposed by a more powerful country.

Scots should head the fact that they will have next to no influence in the world in the event of independence. They will not be guaranteed a place in the EU, and will already be on unfavourable terms with the UK's allies. An independent Scotland would be diplomatically inconsequential, and a disaster domestically.

Reply 99

marcusfox

Original post by Maths Tutor

I have no doubt that the SNP are economically competent whilst running Scotland as part of the UK.

Most of Scotland do not consider withdrawing from the UK to be economically competent however, considering current opinion on the matter.

I'm not aware that any of the economic questions about Scottish independence posed in this thread have been answered elsewhere, or you would have taken great delight in educating us as to what the answers are.

Living in the UK, I have a right to consider how Scottish independence will affect me and my life as a citizen and resident of the UK. Indeed, the rest of the UK should have an equal say (ironically if anything, that would make Scottish independence more likely).

I will also be considering the position and the ramifications on the withdrawal of the UK (it is the UK withdrawing, not England) when I am aware what those ramifications will be.

However it is absurd that I would not be able to hold an opinion on both, and the fact that you imply that I should butt out of something that is none of my business (using my location information provided to TSR) smacks of a childish ad hominem attack. Classy.

I also like the way you use the phrase 'anti-Scottish Independence Axis' as in Axis of Evil, or even Axis powers (WWII) to demean those who hold an opinion different to yourself. Nice little bit of Godwin's Law too.