Is it any more bigoted to hate on feminists than homosexuals?
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(edited 11 years ago)
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I'm not a feminist. I'm a gender egalitarian. I'm for gender equality, I don't believe in patriarchy and that because I have a penis I'm systematically better off because of it. Me and my male friends couldn't get jobs until we were mostly 18. Whereas it's much more common for women to have jobs much earlier (waitressing, cleaners, retail etc.)
I agree with the concept of 'the gender script' and how women and men are given expectations that are purely a result of the genitals we are born with, but I'm a realist, I know that gender scripts (can) benefit both women and men (as well as be a detriment obv).
Men are much more likely to be put in prison for the same crime, Men (regardless of parental quality) are seen as 'secondary carers' of their children and hence are much more likely to get secondary access to the child in the case of divorce, regardless of the parents wishes.
I agree, yes, that men do in general have it better off. But, I acknowledge there are gender issues on both sides. Feminism (in general) doesn't address these.
That is why I am not a feminist, and that is why it is not bigoted.
edit: I do think that comparing idealogical insult to homophobia is bigoted though. I hope that comparison was a result of rushed thought, and not your actual principle.
I agree with the concept of 'the gender script' and how women and men are given expectations that are purely a result of the genitals we are born with, but I'm a realist, I know that gender scripts (can) benefit both women and men (as well as be a detriment obv).
Men are much more likely to be put in prison for the same crime, Men (regardless of parental quality) are seen as 'secondary carers' of their children and hence are much more likely to get secondary access to the child in the case of divorce, regardless of the parents wishes.
I agree, yes, that men do in general have it better off. But, I acknowledge there are gender issues on both sides. Feminism (in general) doesn't address these.
That is why I am not a feminist, and that is why it is not bigoted.
edit: I do think that comparing idealogical insult to homophobia is bigoted though. I hope that comparison was a result of rushed thought, and not your actual principle.
(edited 11 years ago)
It isn't at all the same.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
(edited 11 years ago)
No it so far off, while I do agree with the feminist movement, I'm afraid that the stigma around feminist is the cause of some feminist, acting in a way which derailed from what feminism was about, and of course they grab most of the attention of the media.
As Kiss said above, feminist views can and have changed as I just stated whereas homosexual views cannot
As Kiss said above, feminist views can and have changed as I just stated whereas homosexual views cannot
Original post by Aoide
It isn't at all the same.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
Spot on, it's simple free speech.
Whereas attacking someone because they were born being attracted to the same sex is just intolerance of something someone cannot change. And most importantly, doesn't effect you.
Original post by Kiss
No, homosexuality cannot change whereas feminism views can.
Original post by ipoop
No it so far off, while I do agree with the feminist movement, I'm afraid that the stigma around feminist is the cause of some feminist, acting in a way which derailed from what feminism was about, and of course they grab most of the attention of the media.
As Kiss said above, feminist views can and have changed as I just stated whereas homosexual views cannot
As Kiss said above, feminist views can and have changed as I just stated whereas homosexual views cannot
You can still be a bigot by discriminating against groups that can change their beliefs. It is bigoted to attack gypsies because of their lifestyle even though they could get a house and a regular job. It is bigoted to call all Muslims terrorists even though they could change their religion. And it would be bigoted to condemn gay people for their sexual choices even if they could change their sexuality. Forcing people to change their beliefs and behaviour to fit your ideal of what is right is bigoted.
Original post by ArtGoblin
You can still be a bigot by discriminating against groups that can change their beliefs. It is bigoted to attack gypsies because of their lifestyle even though they could get a house and a regular job. It is bigoted to call all Muslims terrorists even though they could change their religion. And it would be bigoted to condemn gay people for their sexual choices even if they could change their sexuality. Forcing people to change their beliefs and behaviour to fit your ideal of what is right is bigoted.
It isn't bigoted to hate on them for specific reasons however, generalising and hating based on the generalisation is bigoted but not as bigoted as homosexuality. Although, a bigot is a bigot is a bigot...
If you believe very strongly in it feminism, or a strong belief in any particular world view, may be comparable to religious faith but not to things such as gender, sexuality, race etc. which are not a matter of choice. Ultimately, no matter how much you may feel otherwise, you can choose not to be feminist/Christian/Socialist/conservative etc. People get some stick for this, sometimes it may not exactly be eloquent and reasoned argument, but when you are arguing for your point of view that is the other person scraping the barrel, not some kind of incitement to hatred.
(edited 11 years ago)
Judging someone by their expressed ideas about things is equivalent to judging someone by their wholly irrelevant biological proclivities now?
If homosexuals could become straight, it would still be different. Someone's ideas are a rational criterion for assessing their thoughts. Someone's sexuality is not.
edit: your example statements, whilst I wouldn't rush to the rather vague word 'bigoted' (which is just used for emphasis in the statement 'x view is bad', really), would be stupid, at least, because they're either proceeding by fiat, by defining the group 'feminists' as including only those sorts, or simply misunderstanding that a lot of people use the term 'feminist' to apply to people who are simply 'equalists'.
If homosexuals could become straight, it would still be different. Someone's ideas are a rational criterion for assessing their thoughts. Someone's sexuality is not.
edit: your example statements, whilst I wouldn't rush to the rather vague word 'bigoted' (which is just used for emphasis in the statement 'x view is bad', really), would be stupid, at least, because they're either proceeding by fiat, by defining the group 'feminists' as including only those sorts, or simply misunderstanding that a lot of people use the term 'feminist' to apply to people who are simply 'equalists'.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by ArtGoblin
You can still be a bigot by discriminating against groups that can change their beliefs. It is bigoted to attack gypsies because of their lifestyle even though they could get a house and a regular job. It is bigoted to call all Muslims terrorists even though they could change their religion. And it would be bigoted to condemn gay people for their sexual choices even if they could change their sexuality. Forcing people to change their beliefs and behaviour to fit your ideal of what is right is bigoted.
Sure, but having a discourse on something isn't forcing someone to change their belief or behaviour. Criticising or even insulting a belief is nothing more than an excercise of free speech and a clash of ideas. We like clashes of ideas, it gets things to change, eventually.
Hopefully for the better. Maybe.
Original post by Aoide
It isn't at all the same.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.
Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.
If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
Don't bother trying to engage with her logically, she doesn't understand that she isn't the only person in the world and not everyone shares her views.
Original post by Kiss
Don't bother trying to engage with her logically, she doesn't understand that she isn't the only person in the world and not everyone shares her views.
This comment is quite ironic given the subject of the thread
Original post by espial
Sure, but having a discourse on something isn't forcing someone to change their belief or behaviour. Criticising or even insulting a belief is nothing more than an excercise of free speech and a clash of ideas. We like clashes of ideas, it gets things to change, eventually.
Hopefully for the better. Maybe.
Hopefully for the better. Maybe.
There is no problem with people criticising feminism. No belief should be above criticism, and it is important for its development that it is analysed and its weaknesses noted. However, what is typical in discussions about feminism is broad generalisations about feminists and their beliefs which are not grounded in reality. Many people have an pre-existing conception of feminism as female superiority in their minds and no evidence against that position is taken into account. It imposes a view of feminism that does not belong to the vast majority of feminism and shouts them down on that basis which does not sound like free speech to me.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by ArtGoblin
There is no problem with people criticising feminism. No belief should be above criticism, and it is important for its development that it is analysed and its weaknesses noted. However, what is typical in discussions about feminism is broad generalisations about feminists and their beliefs which are not grounded in reality. Many people have an pre-existing conception of feminism as female superiority in their minds and no evidence against that position is taken into account. It imposes a view of feminism that does not belong to the vast majority of feminism and shouts them down on that basis which does not sound like free speech to me.
Oh yeah, sure. But if you shout at someone based on a false premise.. it's not suddenly stopped being freedom of speech. It's just ignorance
People shouldn't be stopped from arguing or be called a bigot for criticising islamic belief, feminism or any ideology. It's just those thoughts should be subject to the same criteria as the original thought itself.
But yeah, agreed. Feminism isn't man hating. The vast majority of it isn't anyway.
Original post by espial
Oh yeah, sure. But if you shout at someone based on a false premise.. it's not suddenly stopped being freedom of speech. It's just ignorance
People shouldn't be stopped from arguing or be called a bigot for criticising islamic belief, feminism or any ideology. It's just those thoughts should be subject to the same criteria as the original thought itself.
But yeah, agreed. Feminism isn't man hating. The vast majority of it isn't anyway.
People shouldn't be stopped from arguing or be called a bigot for criticising islamic belief, feminism or any ideology. It's just those thoughts should be subject to the same criteria as the original thought itself.
But yeah, agreed. Feminism isn't man hating. The vast majority of it isn't anyway.
Ahhh, ignorance: bigotry's best friend.
Original post by Kiss
Don't bother trying to engage with her logically, she doesn't understand that she isn't the only person in the world and not everyone shares her views.
Original post by ipoop
This comment is quite ironic given the subject of the thread
Haha. But more idiotic than ironic I think
Original post by bestofyou
feminism is a social ideology, homosexuality is a sexuality that people cannot change. You have no case here.
Being male or female is a gender you can't change. You have no case here.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by kelly.zheroes
Being male or female is a gender you can't change. You have no case here.
Being male or female is a gender you can't change. You have no case here.
did you actually just say that Kelly?
I am a male yet I don't harp on about how I should be paid more for having a dick.
My female friends don't bitch about how things have to be like this or that, they don't go ballistic if someone made a kitchen or a sandwich joke.
What does this mean? It means not every female is a feminist.
What does that mean? It means that feminism is not wired into the female brain at birth.
What does that tell us? It shows that feminism is a choice.
What does this mean for feminism? It means, as I stated in my post when I very clearly pointed the obvious differences between feminism and homosexuals, that feminism is a social ideology that people choose to support.
You have made a statement on a parallel to:
'Hey, don't blame the racists for being racist. It isn't their fault they were born that way'
You have such a poor case here it actually counts as a negative case. Even worse than no case.
(edited 11 years ago)
Depends if your type of feminism is for true equality for both sexes, in which case the majority of men are also feminists, or the perverted ideology that has given true feminism a bad name, namely gender feminism, or the idea that women are better than men.
Don't try to pretend that the latter type doesn't exist, and since it does true feminism no favours, you should hate on it just as much as everyone else.
Don't try to pretend that the latter type doesn't exist, and since it does true feminism no favours, you should hate on it just as much as everyone else.
(edited 11 years ago)
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