Which Further Maths modules advised for Maths at University?

Hello!
I am in Year 12 but am planning (for some reason) what modules I want to take in Year 13 for Further Maths.

By the end of Year 12 I would have completed my 'Normal' Maths A-Level completely with these modules:
C1, C2, S1 (C1 - 82, C2 - 98, S1 - 83)
C3, C4, D1 (C3 - currently 79 but will retake to hopefully get 90+, the Jan 2013 exam I thought was far more difficult than previous years, sadly this was not reflected in the grade boundaries... D1 - 76 not retaking. Haven't done C4 yet)

Along with Further Maths AS:
FP1, NM, M1 (Not taken any of them, NM I was meant to take in January but our school, rather pathetically, cancelled it because of the snow; but this module was my favourite and I thought quite easy. M1 looks easy as I've done the first Physics module and I've done kinematics etc before. FP1 is a tad difficult. )

I want to study Maths at University, so I was wondering which modules for Further Maths A2 would be beneficial from these:
FP2 along with two of: M2 S2 DE

I wouldn't want to do any more decision modules or the 'N' (numerical) modules. FP2 looks difficult enough, so I don't think FP3 is 'on the table'.

I'm not sure what area of Maths I would want to study at University, so I wanted to find out which modules people found most useful at University / thought they should have taken.

I'm right in saying that to get an A* in Further Maths you need 480 UMS in total including 90% aggregate in three A2 units that are counted towards Further Maths. This doesn't have to include FP2, is that correct?

Finally, is Further Additional Maths AS worth getting? I'd be taking it alongside Further Maths, History and Physics in Year 13. Or should I just take an extra module or two, therefore covering S2, M2 and DE, so that I'd stand a greater chance at getting an A* in Further Maths as I could 'bin' a few modules, as it were.

Thanks for your help. Hope it all makes sense.

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Reply 1

milienhaus

The FP modules are by far the most useful for university - the Stats modules aren't useful, as university stats is very different, the mechanics modules are ok, and I would imagine DE is useful. Do FP3!

Reply 2

Noble.

Generally the mechanics modules are better to take (they're more like the type of mathematics you do at University than stats/decision) and they are harder. Although on Edexcel I wouldn't say M1/M2 was any harder than the other modules, it's really around M3-M5 that it gets better.

Also, for Further Maths you need an A overall and then a 90% average in 3 of the modules (doesn't specifically have to be FP2). I was on Edexcel, and that's how it worked, it might be different with OCR.

I actually did 14 modules (as opposed to the 12) because I wanted to get rid of my D1 mark and I also wanted to do M5; I could've done one extra module to get the AS in Additional Further but I didn't in the end. It can be quite a good idea to help secure an A* in Further Maths although be careful not to sacrifice your other A-Levels because it'll really not be worth it.

Reply 3

username937760

If you want to do Maths at university, then do FP3. It's by far the most useful module you can take.

Reply 4

willfowler

How is Stats different at University?
Differential Equations was one of the modules on a Maths course I looked at, so I was leaning towards that.
As for FP3... according to the spec for OCR MEI:
"Candidates are expected to know the content for C1, C2, C3, C4, FP1 and FP2."
I'm not sure how feasible this is, let alone how many of my teachers teach FP3. I only know of 1 person that did FP3 and that was last year, he was some sort of genius, and has gone of to Cambridge with 3 A*s in Maths. I'm not bad at maths, but no where near that level, plus I think he taught most of it to himself, where as I prefer being taught.
M2 only requires M1, C1, C2 - so this seems more feasible than FP3.
DE requires "Candidates are expected to know the content of C1, C2, C3 and C4.
In addition candidates are expected to know basic kinematics and Newton’s Second Law.
Relevant knowledge of complex numbers will also be required." - So I'm assuming that means a bit from M1 and FP1.
I take your point FP3 would be useful, but I don't think it'd be achievable and if for some reason I loved FP2 then I might take it for fun on the side and put it towards Further Additional Maths if I were to take it, or have it as an extra module. Or even just study the module and not take the exam and count it as extra reading before going to University.
Out of interest, did you do Maths / Further Maths and if so what modules did you do? :smile:

Reply 5

willfowler

Hi Noble,
Ahh good, I was hoping someone would recommend Mechanics, as I enjoy those. I agree M1 seems easy, although M2 sounds a bit more difficult, so we'll see...
Hahaa, I didn't like D1 either! Good good, I agree, perhaps that would be better. And I don't think you have to put extra modules down on UCAS where as an entire AS you do, or am I completely wrong?

Hi DJMayes,
As I said in my reply to milienhaus, basically I don't think I'd do that well in it and I'd probably have to teach it to myself as I doubt my classmates would want to study it. I may fall in love with FP2 and find FP3 as some sort of hidden talent... somehow I doubt that. But if it's so useful I may have to consider. I think it just frightens me, the fact it's FP3...

Reply 6

milienhaus

Original post by willfowler

Stats is approached very differently - at school you basically learn a recipe to find a result which you then regurgitate in the exam (which I always found incredibly tedious), whereas at university you derive all the appropriate theorems and try to understand why everything works. It's a lot more formal.

Yes, all maths degrees will include one (or more likely many, under different names) modules on differential equations, they're very useful. It doesn't necessarily follow that an A-level course of the same name will be that useful, but it probably would be.

I wasn't saying don't take M2, its a decent module and without it you will be at a disadvantage if you end up doing lots of dynamics-y stuff in your degree. I'm saying take FP3 instead of S2. If you really don't want to then at least learn the material over the summer or whatever, most people will have it and you will be at a disadvantage if you have to learn it all at the accelerated 'revision' pace of the start of most university courses. It's never fun already feeling behind in the first term!

I'm currently doing maths at university (fourth year), and I did both maths A levels (you really don't find many people studying maths who didn't ...). I suspect I was on a different board from you because we didn't have any of your numerical modules or DEs, but I did C1-4, S1-2 (waste of time), M1-2 and FP1-4. And when I got here I had to take a special extra mechanics course because most people do at least to M3, unfortunately, at least at Cambridge.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 7

willfowler

Thanks for the reply milienhaus!! :smile:

Ahh I see, I felt that about S1, especially in hindsight, I never felt like I learnt how it all worked and if I were given an ever slightly different scenario whether what I'd learnt would apply.

Good point regarding Differential equations. I can't seen any harm in learning something related to it. It seems, from what you're saying and how you're saying it, that it's better than stats.

Fair enough, I think I want to take M2. Good idea, I may do this. I think I'll talk to my teachers about it at the end of this year and see what the plan is for next year, seeing as we don't have January exams it might be different. I agree, that's one of the reasons I want to do DE, purely because of how scary it looks when it's being taught to those in the year above, I'd hate to have to learn that from scratch at University. Equally, the content of FP3 would be difficult to cover at an accelerated pace.

Nice! Blimey! I don't feel prepared now! OCR MEI don't even have an FP4, at least not now, so I'm sure you didn't do the same course as me. I don't think I'll apply to Cambridge, Oxford, UCL or Imperial College London, therefore I wont be up against people like you :P

Reply 8

willfowler

Also, you might be able to help with another concern I have.
My friend wants to do Medicine, he is concerned about something slightly different but he did Maths across the years: Year 11 - 12 instead of Year 12-13 like me and he posted about another question somewhere else and their reply was that because he didn't do it in Year 12-13 that it doesn't count / that they disregard it.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=41717259&highlight=
Is this true?!
If so, will Universities do the same for me despite me wanting to Maths at University making disregarding my Maths A-Level rather stupid?

Reply 9

milienhaus

So will you only be taking two subjects in year 13?

Medicine is super competitive and a lot of medical schools specify that they want to see A levels done in 2 years, which I assume will be why people said they might ignore his maths A level. I've never seen anyone try and say that for maths. What universities do sometimes say is that they won't accept lower grades from A levels taken early just because you were young - if you weren't yet able to perform to the best of your ability you shouldn't have taken it early. I think that's not a problem for you though.

I don't think they would ignore your A level, but be aware that if you are taking 3 further A levels your offer may be conditional on all 3 if they're feeling a bit mean.

Reply 10

willfowler

Naa I'll be doing 3 subjects: History, Further Maths and Physics.
I thought that'd be the issue. Exactly, if it wasn't quite so respected then it might be different, but it's Maths which is the best subject!!! :P Good good. I agree with you, thank you, I hope not!
That'll be fine, I was worried about Physics and particularly History before today but my results have reassured me (two As) that I can do well in them.
Thank you so much for your help!! :biggrin:

I would give you more positive rep, but I've already given my positive rep 'allowance' to you and the 2 others who've replied.

Reply 11

ttoby

I think the most important thing you need to focus on right now is
C3 and C4. You need to be aiming to get an A* in maths as many of the top universities ask for that in their offers.

I'm not sure about additional further maths - it's not included in any standard offers (i.e. it would count the same as any other AS). Given the number of other subjects you're taking, I don't think adding additional qualifications would be worth it.

Reply 12

willfowler

Hi ttoby
I am focusing on it, seeing as C3 didn't go as well I originally planned in January. I aim to nail C3 in the summer and do really well in C4. Get an A*. Focus on Further Maths and try and work towards an A* in that somehow.
Thank you for your opinion on Further Additional Maths, I agree. It wouldn't be worth it in terms of it being an extra qualification, but perhaps doing the modules (maybe just two extra modules) would increase my knowledge ready for University.

Reply 13

ttoby

Original post by willfowler

Anything not in the core would be covered from scratch at university, so whilst it would make things easier for you initially, after about half a year having those extra modules would not make much difference. The main thing you want to be focusing on at this stage is getting high grades, particularly in maths. So don't take on any extra work until you've got C3/C4 out of the way - in terms of priorities, A* in maths is more important than A* in further maths. I don't know if you've spent much time looking at websites for different universities but have a look at this page to get an idea: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Mathematics_entry_requirements Although there are exceptions, many places ask for a higher grade in maths than in further maths. Obviously you should work hard for both subjects as you say, but maths is where you need to focus your efforts.

Reply 14

willfowler

I understand. I will focus on Maths as my priority, purely because I want to get it out of the way by the end of year 12 otherwise I'd be spending 3 years on it which is frowned upon. I'd only be taking the extra modules next year, Year 13. This was my understanding, that you are only required to know C1, C2, C3, C4 if they require Maths, and if they require Further Maths then FP1 and FP2 on top of that. I've had a look and yes, obviously they'll require a better grade in Maths than Further Maths.
Fear not, I shall focus on Maths and shall not be taking any extra modules this year, only those necessary to get an A-Level in Maths and AS in Further Maths.
Do you know much about STEP? How difficult is it compared to say A2 Maths or / and A2 Further Maths.
As I understand it there are 3 papers:
STEP 1 - Uses A-Level 'Normal' Maths
STEP 2 - Uses A-Level Maths and Further Maths
STEP 3 - Very complicated :P
And the grades you get are some special thing then 1 2 and a 3 ?
Will it require more work than A2 Further Maths or A2 Maths?
Should I take it if the Universities I'm applying to don't explicitly require it?

Reply 15

ttoby

Original post by willfowler

STEP is considerably more difficult than A-level - the questions are longer and part of what makes it difficult is that it may not be obvious what sort of approach to take to a question. To get an idea of what it's like, the past papers are online so you can have a look and try a couple of the questions. There are also various resources and discussion in the maths academic help forum on this website.

Yes, there are three papers, graded from (best to worst) S, 1, 2, 3, U. Normally you would take one or two of the papers. You might be required to take certain papers (Cambridge does this and Imperial sometimes) otherwise you would generally just do STEP 1. Cambridge and Warwick include STEP in almost every offer, whilst Bath, Bristol, Imperial and UCL have the option of doing a STEP paper to make up for a lower grade in another area of your application. There are also some universities which say they encourage it but don't use it in any offers.

It will require you to put in more work to prepare for it, as the best way to study for it is to do lots of past questions which can require you to think a lot to solve them. The questions change a lot each year so looking at the answers won't really help much - it's all about your skills at working things out. It is possible to take the exams just for fun if it's not included in any offers. A good mark might help you if you narrowly miss your offer but there are no guarantees about that - on the other hand you don't want to narrowly miss your offer because you were too busy studying for STEP.

Reply 16

h2shin

Original post by Noble.

Helloo, Isn't FP2 mandatory for A2 Further Maths? Does this mean you HAVE to do FP2 but could get the 90% in 3 different A2 modules?

Reply 17

Noble.

Original post by h2shin

Helloo, Isn't FP2 mandatory for A2 Further Maths? Does this mean you HAVE to do FP2 but could get the 90% in 3 different A2 modules?

FP2 isn't mandatory, but I think you may have to do one of FP2 or FP3, I'm not entirely sure though.

Reply 18

ttoby

Original post by h2shin

Helloo, Isn't FP2 mandatory for A2 Further Maths? Does this mean you HAVE to do FP2 but could get the 90% in 3 different A2 modules?

There could be slight changes in the policy between different exam boards. If you're unsure then the best thing to do is to check the specification document for your board.

Reply 19

willfowler

h2shin you're correct as is Noble if you combine what you said. Basically I could do FP2 or FP3 along with two other A2 modules to get an A2 in Further Maths. I'm going to be doing FP2. As I don't think FP2 is going to be my strong point I may take an extra A2 module such as a Mechanics module or something to I can use that as one of the 4 applied modules in my Further Maths e.g:
FP1 M1 M2
FP2 M3 DE
Therefore the A* could be made from 90% across M2, M3 and DE instead of FP2, M3 and DE or equally FP2 M2 and DE... etc etc.

Thanks ttoby for your reply regarding STEP.
This was my understanding off it from hearing about my brother's friend who took STEP and how he worked harder for it than A2 Further Maths. I have actually had a look at STEP 1 and feel I could attempt a fair few of the Pure parts with my knowledge of C1, C2 and C3. And unless I see a nice Mechanics question I think I'd try and get away with only answering the Pure questions.
Out of the universities mentioned I think I'm only looking at perhaps Warwick but definitely Bath.
As you said I think I may just take it for fun and for 'the experience' of it. But as you point out I don't want to be focusing on that and miss out on any offers I get, so it'll really depend on what offers I get, should I get one from either Warwick or Bath then I think I might take it to try and lower the offer. If I don't then I may take it, but not revise as seriously, or just not take it at all.
When do you think I should take it? If I am right in saying STEP 1 requires A-Level Maths, then would it be best to take it at the end of Year 12 as that's when C1, C2, C3, C4 would be fresh in my mind? Or should I wait a year for my Maths ability to generally improve?