Cameron wants to make apprenticeships the "new norm" for non Uni goers...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21734560

What do we think?

Personally I think it's a good idea, for even if people don't find work with a company at the end of it, they could still use the skills they've acquired from doing the apprenticeship to set up their own business or something, might actually do some good! :smile:

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Reply 1

SpottedZebra

Original post by TheHistoryStudent

Although I generally despise Cameron, I do think this is a good idea. With uni fees going through the roof and less people being able to afford this option, and also for people that would never have wanted to go anyway, apprenticeships can teach them a trade that they will then know and be able to use for the rest of their lives. It gives people a job to fall back on, something that is a good solid job such as being a tradesman, hairdressing, childcare.

Both me and my boyfriend went to apprenticeships after leaving school and I think they're a great way of making a career for yourself. I've ended up studying for a degree after completing my apprenticeship, so it's not even writing off ever going to uni :smile:

Reply 2

Fullofsurprises

This seems to resurface regularly now under all governments - the 'need for more apprenticeships' has been talked about for over a decade. I suspect they are just paying it lip service - in the final analysis, it depends on companies to offer them. In the years before the Thatcher government, there were substantial tax breaks for companies running them and support for local technical colleges in each town that worked with the local businesses to provide them. This was all ended during the Thatcher administration and has not been replaced since then to anything like the same extent.

Reply 3

SillyEddy

Original post by SpottedZebra

I have to say... It seems like 99.9% of the people I've heard say they "can't afford" the university fees just don't understand how the financing works. It's not something you can or can't afford, it's just something paid out. Living costs would be something entirely different, but university and loan support seems to have increased since the fee changes. I think people should evaluate the economic benefit that their degree might give them (some train for jobs which are dying out, or jobs which take skill over a degree), but they still won't be in debt from university because of that lack of work.

In terms of Cameron... Good job. Skills have to come from somewhere and many people would want to work if there were more opportunities for them to do so.

Reply 4

SpottedZebra

Original post by SillyEddy

I get your point, that anyone can get the loan but there are still many reasons that someone might be financially unable to attend university. They could need the money from a full time job to support their family, or they could have just been brought up to believe that you should never borrow money unless absolutely necessary. University is unfortunately inaccessible for some people, and for them apprenticeships are a great option :smile:

Reply 5

Muppet Science

Yeah I think it is a good idea. I think one of the problems today is that people frown on apprenticeships, which pressures people to go to university. One of my friends was thinking of going to university but his grades are relatively poor and he struggled with GCSEs. Luckily at his college the tutors advised him, and he is now in the military doing a Btec in Public Services.

Reply 6

M1011

Original post by SpottedZebra

I get your point, that anyone can get the loan but there are still many reasons that someone might be financially unable to attend university. 1) They could need the money from a full time job to support their family, or they could have just been 2) brought up to believe that you should never borrow money unless absolutely necessary. University is unfortunately inaccessible for some people, and for them apprenticeships are a great option :smile:

Some general observations (not aimed at you!);

1) Valid reason, although I suspect this doesn't apply to many people.

2) With regards to this reason, couldn't give a toss. If someone can't think for themselves and make a balanced decision about their future, then they probably shouldn't be going to university anyway. I can respect people choosing to not go to uni because they don't think it will justify the repayments, but people that don't do it on a 'I refuse to have debt' basis are just dumb.

Reply 7

TobaccoSmoke

What's the point in learning a trade if the company you did your apprenticeship with is just going to out-source to China or India a few years down the line?

Like it or not, the UK is becoming a knowledge based economy and a degree holds far more power than any semi-skilled technical profession.

Reply 8

LukeM90

Tbh i think its a good idea too, I did a BTEC national then a HND and they are said to be more vocational than academic, but still the lack of experience or work skills was what held me back lol,

On the job training and a wage is a possitive thing for young men and women imo, helps them grow professionaly and personaly (i.e. confidence) the one downside I can see is dont apprenticeships get less money than full time minimum wage?

Thats my only arguement against it, other than that I consider it a great idea, good job imo!

Also as a worker in the IT industry, I can see how practical training by a current professional would be invaluable to a school leaver, trades already prove apprenticeships to be a good route!

They should maybe try and encourage the completion of a-levels or a btec during, though im lead to believe some apprenticeses get Nvqs or equivilants so thats ok!

Reply 9

TobaccoSmoke

Also, without a degree there will be a limit to what sort of salary you could expect to earn, which will typically be around the £25,000 mark as a maximum.

If you want a higher salary, you've got to have a degree or a HND.

Reply 10

SpottedZebra

Original post by M1011

They're fair points you've made there I think....but with regard to the refusing to have a debt being 'dumb', I'd disagree with that, I think that's to do with morals people have been brought up with. Everyone is brought up differently, and as long as they take that choice and still contribute to society by doing something like an apprenticeship (i.e. not living off benefits) that's perfectly fine by me :smile:

University just doesn't suit some people and that can be for many different reasons :smile:

Reply 11

scrotgrot

Cynical side of me is saying he'll do anything to keep them off the jobless figures, the (heavily fiddled) figures are the only argument austerity has left in its arsenal.

But really he's right, we should never have deregulated higher education to the extent we did.

Reply 12

SpottedZebra

Original post by TobaccoSmoke

I wouldn't agree with that. My boyfriend has completed an apprenticeship, which has led him to a job with a salary of £30,000 a year plus overtime/bonuses. With a few years of hard work, he could even get into a supervisory role.....good apprenticeships can get you a good salary :smile:

Reply 13

Fullofsurprises

Original post by scrotgrot

Well, there are apprenticeships and then there are 'apprenticeships' - there's a world of difference between lengthy, properly constructed and highly skills-based professionally trained apprentices working for serious companies and the sort of joke schemes for the unemployed dreamed up by the DWP and run for substantial profit. I imagine Cameron's advisers in No 10 have dreamed up some way of relabelling some of the latter as "apprentices", haha.

Reply 14

stuart_aitken

It might work. In Oz they have a similar-ish system. You can only leave school at 16 if you have an apprenticeship lined up. Then again, Australia is the new American dream. Their troubles are all soaked up by the Mining wealth.

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Reply 15

username937957

This is one of the rare occasions that I agree with Cameron. However, for this to work, you'll need more apprenticeships in sectors other than engineering and customer care. The ILEX, for example, should be adopted by more legal firms, and there should be a clearer and faster route to becoming a solicitor without a degree, and then when barristers actually accept that the entire profession can't only accept people from Oxbridge maybe the ILEX could become a route to being a barrister too. Then those who want a more academic education can do a degree whilst those who want money or enjoy vocational education can take the ILEX.

There needs to be a greater mainstream acceptance of apprenticeships, too. One way to stop that could potentially be for employers to stop paying apprenticeships enough money to buy a bag of Haribo and a Coke at the end of the day, thinking that they should be earning less because they have the word 'apprentice' in their job title. I was thinking of applying for a post-16 apprenticeship, but was put off when I worked out the full-time pay was something like £3000 a year and the job consisted of picking up the phone and scanning stuff. I could get a job at Greggs and get more money, and be in Sixth Form whilst I do that.

Reply 16

MrHappy_J

I'm of the opinion that it's wrong to force or pressure someone into doing something they don't want to do.

Reply 17

SpottedZebra

Original post by MrHappy_J

I'm of the opinion that it's wrong to force or pressure someone into doing something they don't want to do.

i agree with that, but I don't think Cameron is going in for pressuring people to do apprenticeships. He's talking about working to make them good options for both employers and apprentices, and to bring attention to them as an option for people who don't wish to go to university. :smile:

Reply 18

MrHappy_J

Original post by SpottedZebra

It's all been said before but as someone else pointed out employers won't want to offer jobs to apprentices in this country if they can get cheaper labour elsewhere.
And a degree will always hold more value than an apprenticeship.

Reply 19

SpottedZebra

Original post by MrHappy_J

A degree isn't accessible to everyone, for a number of reasons. For people that this applies to, apprenticeships can be an invaluable way of learning a trade while earning a small amount of money. On completion of a *good* apprenticeship, there can be great career prospects. They are just more suited to people with practical rather than academic people, and people that aren't afraid of a bit of hard work to move themselves up the career ladder.

And apprenticeships are worth it for employers, they are incentivised by the government for employers as they will help with training costs, the apprentices wages and other aspects of the business. In the eyes of the employer, they are making an investment in a person who will become a good worker in the future and in the meantime, can be very helpful in carrying out less complex tasks. If they weren't worth it for employers, employers wouldn't offer them.