Cameron wants to make apprenticeships the "new norm" for non Uni goers...

They're fair points you've made there I think....but with regard to the refusing to have a debt being 'dumb', I'd disagree with that, I think that's to do with morals people have been brought up with. Everyone is brought up differently, and as long as they take that choice and still contribute to society by doing something like an apprenticeship (i.e. not living off benefits) that's perfectly fine by me University just doesn't suit some people and that can be for many different reasons

Please note the issue I have is with people blanketly refusing to have debt, not generally trying to avoid it which is probably a good idea! The idea that someone simply won't even consider an option because it results in debt is, in my opinion, unforgiveably stupid. A smart person is always willing to weigh up the options (imo)!

A degree isn't accessible to everyone, for a number of reasons. For people that this applies to, apprenticeships can be an invaluable way of learning a trade while earning a small amount of money. On completion of a *good* apprenticeship, there can be great career prospects. They are just more suited to people with practical rather than academic people, and people that aren't afraid of a bit of hard work to move themselves up the career ladder.

And apprenticeships are worth it for employers, they are incentivised by the government for employers as they will help with training costs, the apprentices wages and other aspects of the business. In the eyes of the employer, they are making an investment in a person who will become a good worker in the future and in the meantime, can be very helpful in carrying out less complex tasks. If they weren't worth it for employers, employers wouldn't offer them.

The truth is that many employers dont. Why waste money on training someone when they can employ someone who already has the necessary skills?

Many employers don't, but many employers also do. But I agree with the general point that for Cameron make apprenticeships the 'norm' like he is proposing, some changes will need to be made to make apprenticeships more appealing for both employers and young people.
At the moment I reckon there's too much of a gap between good apprenticeships offering good qualifications within a good company and apprenticeships that are really just cheap labour the company, with them having little intention of providing good training. That needs to be changed in order for apprenticeships to become a more popular route. I think they would also need to broaden the different types of career paths that offer apprenticeships.

Many young people are not emotionally prepared for apprenticeship. The trade-off is that in return for getting paid not very much and doing a lot of donkey work, your employer spends a lot of effort teaching you something (practically) that you would otherwise wouldn't be able to learn. Typically, it's a few years of bending pipes, sweeping up and sawing through stuff - all the while getting paid the bottom NMW rate.

And there are a lot of people that just won't have it. They see their friends earning more and won't accept something else, or a job involving very menial tasks.

I know of a company that advertised two electronics apprenticeships in the last few years. Both went unfilled, with candidates turning the places down to work at a shoe shop and a sports shop respectively; along with several no-shows for interview.

I'm not surprised, I'd also find it degrading to work for peanuts whilst all my friends are getting along in life. It's not even enough to live on, how are you supposed to pay for everything on that salary?

This seems to resurface regularly now under all governments - the 'need for more apprenticeships' has been talked about for over a decade. I suspect they are just paying it lip service - in the final analysis, it depends on companies to offer them. In the years before the Thatcher government, there were substantial tax breaks for companies running them and support for local technical colleges in each town that worked with the local businesses to provide them. This was all ended during the Thatcher administration and has not been replaced since then to anything like the same extent.

That's part of the apprenticeship trade-off. You are assumed to be being supported by family.

Why is it degrading? At university you pay them to learn something. At apprenticeship, college fees are covered and you get paid (albeit not much.

so long as apprentices keep getting paid only 2 quid an hour i dont think they're going to attract much interest. apart from the people who just don't have a choice.

The German economy is driven by this system. It works and it works well.

There was a big push for it in the 70s along German lines but the unions stomped on it.

It would also need but in from all parties. Basically the German system results in no work for anybody without an apprenticeship. That means minimal benefits as well

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21734560

What do we think?

Personally I think it's a good idea, for even if people don't find work with a company at the end of it, they could still use the skills they've acquired from doing the apprenticeship to set up their own business or something, might actually do some good!

Like you said - needs agreement from everyone. We're not big on regulation of trades here, and the only people that seem keen on factory work protectionism are factory workers - everyone else (unionised or not) gets the hump when people are paid £40k in a closed shop for operating a widget machine for your whole life.

I can see the value in the German system, but I fear it would mean decades of pain here. It's too late.

What about people investing in their own future for a change?

That's part of the apprenticeship trade-off. You are assumed to be being supported by family.

Why is it degrading? At university you pay them to learn something. At apprenticeship, college fees are covered and you get paid (albeit not much.

some people cant afford to work for 2 quid an hour.