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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Original post by MatureStudent36
Any viewpoints from our southern chums on an English parliament?


It appears that home rule may be on the cards for Shetland.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/political-news/former-libdem-leader-its-shetlands-oil-alex.20523802?_=b29060b88734839ba76dbadcb1e52fc94cd3d33d


I'd definitely welcome it-safe to say I've had enough of hypocritical Scots voting on English issues.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I don't care who's bank rolling who.

If we want to start going on about who's bank rolling who - - -


Tell that to the poster who made the following claim, not me:

Original post by a729


When the friends down south help bankroll your lifestyle (FREE uni , FREE hospital parking and FREE prescriptions) when the southern friends don't have that- you sound like the person who's biting the hand that feeds them
Original post by MatureStudent36
Actually. Defence is rather good. You shouldn't believe the hype. Equipment a actually top notch.


Proof? Last article I read commented on how poorly equipped the soldiers were (albeit it was dated 2008/09).

And yes, there's a cut if twenty thousand....... Somebody's finally realised that we don't need to garrison Germany anymore. Anyway. Have you not heard of soft power? It's more effective than hard power and its something we lead the way in.


Two points:

. Most folk on this board want welfare spending to be cut (and that's what the government will probably end up doing). What's going to happen to these troops cosidering the lack of jobs kicking about? It'll be a bit **** for them to suffer job losses and cuts to benefits at the same time, especially those with families to feed.

. Don't you think Phillip Hammond should concentrate on sorting out his stuff before criticising others (+ deflecting the public's attention) .

what are you planning? Other than the wholesale slaughter of scottish defence jobs?


Phillip Hammond is doing that perfectly on his own. Anyway, I imagine if Scotland was to gain independence, then they'd be alright with a tiny army. One filled by those soldiers that are facing the job axe as we speak.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
I'm no xenophobe.


Yes, you are. That is why you have taken my comments CHALLENGING claims that England subsidises Scotland as being anti-English.

It is a well known tactic of the anti-independence Axis to portray the campaign for Scotland's independence as being anti-English.

Let me make it very clear to you: the campaign for Scotland's Independence is to end rule from Westminster - it has nothing to do with the English people.
Original post by MatureStudent36


I'm no xenophobe. I've made it perfectly clear that other than regional nuances I see no difference between anybody.



Original post by MatureStudent36


When we vote in the Westminster elections Blair/Brown/Darling?


If you are not a xenophobe, in a "subtle way", why are you pointing out the ethnicity of non-English politicians at Westminster?

Unlike you, I don't care about the ethnicity of politicians either at Westminster or in the Scottish parliament.
Original post by Maths Tutor
Furthermore, England's deficit is MORE than Scotland's. So even with a deficit, an independent Scotland will be better off than England.


Original post by Midlander
England's deficit would be bigger because its population is over 10 times bigger than Scotland's.


Original post by Maths Tutor
Yes, even a six year old would understand that.

What you need to understand is that comparitive statistics refer to PER HEAD of the population. In other words, the National debt per person in England is quite a bit higher than the the National debt per person in Scotland


Original post by Midlander
Your point being?


As I said in my original post (which was challenging a claim that England is bankrolling Scotland): even with a deficit, an independent Scotland will be better off than England.
Original post by Maths Tutor
As I said in my original post (which was challenging a claim that England is bankrolling Scotland): even with a deficit, an independent Scotland will be better off than England.


On what basis? A finite resource in the North Sea in which none of the main players involved are Scottish companies? Alex Salmond wants to continue with the sterling in an independent Scotland-if the Scottish economy is so powerful, why not go it alone properly rather than in a way in which the perks of union are retained?
Original post by Midlander
I'd definitely welcome it-safe to say I've had enough of hypocritical Scots voting on English issues.






Thats one piece of credit I will give the SNP. Their MPs won't vote that way.
theres still quite a few scottish MPs that represent English constituencies? Are they null and void as they connect culturally with the constituents?
Original post by Maths Tutor
Yes, you are. That is why you have taken my comments CHALLENGING claims that England subsidises Scotland as being anti-English.

It is a well known tactic of the anti-independence Axis to portray the campaign for Scotland's independence as being anti-English.

Let me make it very clear to you: the campaign for Scotland's Independence is to end rule from Westminster - it has nothing to do with the English people.


Sorry, I just can't agree with this-even unionist Scots I know still say outrageous things like all English people should be ashamed of murdering Scots in the 14th century. Anglophobia is rife in Scotland and the SNP is of course playing on those sentiments for its own agenda. They forget that England isn't the only other country in this union.

What would independence gain you that you don't already have from devolution?
Original post by Maths Tutor
If you are not a xenophobe, in a "subtle way", why are you pointing out the ethnicity of non-English politicians at Westminster?

Unlike you, I don't care about the ethnicity of politicians either at Westminster or in the Scottish parliament.



How can I be xenophobic against my own people? I'm merely pointing out that as you keep saying that Scotland doesn't have a voice in Westminster, I merely pointed out three rather high profile scots that were part of the UK government disproving your hypothesis. We'll even leave out the ones presently in government that nobody in Scotland appeared to vote for yet they're still in government.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Thats one piece of credit I will give the SNP. Their MPs won't vote that way.
theres still quite a few scottish MPs that represent English constituencies? Are they null and void as they connect culturally with the constituents?


The big thing I have to say going for Alex Salmond is that he firmly believes England should have its own form of national assembly and I appreciate that no SNP MPs vote on English matters.

As for your other point-my own MP for Coventry South, Jim Cunningham, is a Scot. I've no problem with that of course, but if English MPs could vote on Scottish matters you can be sure that Salmond would be right onto it.
Original post by Midlander
On what basis? A finite resource in the North Sea in which none of the main players involved are Scottish companies? Alex Salmond wants to continue with the sterling in an independent Scotland-if the Scottish economy is so powerful, why not go it alone properly rather than in a way in which the perks of union are retained?



Because every country needs a lender of last resort. He has to say Sterling, because the other option is the European Central Bank and that means the euro. I'm amazed after the euro zone crisis he believes it'll be politically acceptable to the uk electorate.

anyway, the more I think about this the more I think he doesn't want this referendum to happen. They're just like other politicians and are trying to feather their nests fir when they're out of power. I'm sensing Joan macalpine is after some media related commission post.

anybody else seen the u turn on press curbs that they were so vocal about wanting to implement up until a few days ago.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Because every country needs a lender of last resort. He has to say Sterling, because the other option is the European Central Bank and that means the euro. I'm amazed after the euro zone crisis he believes it'll be politically acceptable to the uk electorate.

anyway, the more I think about this the more I think he doesn't want this referendum to happen. They're just like other politicians and are trying to feather their nests fir when they're out of power. I'm sensing Joan macalpine is after some media related commission post.

anybody else seen the u turn on press curbs that they were so vocal about wanting to implement up until a few days ago.

I still haven't had any answer from Scots as to why the SNP has held onto most of the money given to it by Westminster specifically for Scottish regeneration projects. If that isn't cutting off the nose to spite the face I don't know what is. Whenever he makes a gaffe it gets minimal press attention-it seems that an Anglophobic liar can get away with things other ones can't.
Original post by FinalMH
I think you need to understand the majority of the people in Scotland did not vote for SNP government, however based on the elector system provided them with more MPs. The SNP had 876,421 votes and against the SNP were 927,240 (Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats).



Original post by Maths Tutor


But tell me:

What % of the vote did the SNP get and what % of seats in the Scottish parliament?

What % of the vote did the Conservatives get and what % of seats in the UK parliament?



Original post by FinalMH
You should clearly be able to see the point I am making. You continue to shout down the conservatives in Scotland due to the fact of how many seats they have in the Scottish parliament but that does not remove the fact that over 245,967 voted for them in the last election.


In a comment completely unrelated to the point I was making, YOU claimed that the SNP do not have majority support in Scotland and that the electoral system in Scotland gave them more MSPs than they deserved.

Why are you AFRAID to post similar figures for the ruling present (or even past) Government at WESTMINSTER?

I am NOT shouting "down the conservatives in Scotland" - I clearly asked about their UK parliament representation.
Original post by FinalMH


There is absolutely no need to capitalises Westminster.

The "Scottish people" are just as much to blame (if not more) for the current situation we are in now.

Who were the people responsible for overseeing the finance of the United Kingdom? The PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer? and where were they born? oh wait Scotland

Chancellor of the Exchequer
Alistair Darling - Chancellor of the Exchequer 28 June 2007 – 11 May 2010
Gordon Brown - Chancellor of the Exchequer 2 May 1997 – 27 June 2007

Prime Minister
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown



The campaign for Scotland's independence is to end WESTMINSTER rule.

The ETHNICITY of politicians controlling Westminster IS OF NO IMPORTANCE WHATSOEVER. Wherever they come from, they follow the party line.

Quite a substantial proportion of Scotland's population hated Thatcher and hates the Tories - NOT because they may happen to be English, but because of their policies.

Original post by FinalMH
My comment is not "absurd". I said that the Scottish people contributed to the debt of the United Kingdom. However to suggest that the Scottish government and the SNP are this peace lovely party is *******


It WAS "absurd", as IS this one. WESTMINSTER created the debt, not the Scottish people, not the English people. And most certainly not the Scottish government, the SNP or Alex Salmond.
Original post by Maths Tutor
In a comment completely unrelated to the point I was making, YOU claimed that the SNP do not have majority support in Scotland and that the electoral system in Scotland gave them more MSPs than they deserved.

Why are you AFRAID to post similar figures for the ruling present (or even past) Government at WESTMINSTER?

I am NOT shouting "down the conservatives in Scotland" - I clearly asked about their UK parliament representation.


Can you please refrain from being patronizing, it does not add to the debate. I am not afraid of anything. You can easily get the figures if you believe them to relevant. :s-smilie: The problem here is with devolution, peoples opinions change overtime. (Also if you wish to continue with this debate remove the condescending attitude).

:laugh: Are you suggesting that because Scotland didn't get Labour elected at the previous general election that the current UK government are not representing UK interests? Just imagine your type of thinking and that of the United States, 13 states would be independent.

Stop the rhetoric and make your point... If you have one that is...
Perhaps Maths Tutor can explain the SNP not spending money specifically given to it by Westminster for Scottish regeneration.
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Original post by Megan1234567
16 years old should be given the vote they are the future if the government lets them have a child and get married then they should have the right to vote.


That's not an argument, it's an assertion. As I've said, I've yet to see a credible reason presented as to, firstly, why the age of voting and marriage should be linked, and secondly why we should slavishly follow a marriage age set in the 1920s which seems to have very little relevance to modern life.
Original post by Midlander
On what basis? A finite resource in the North Sea in which none of the main players involved are Scottish companies? Alex Salmond wants to continue with the sterling in an independent Scotland-if the Scottish economy is so powerful, why not go it alone properly rather than in a way in which the perks of union are retained?


The point I made was that the national debt PER HEAD in Scotland is quite a bit lower than the national debt PER HEAD in England. That situation will get even better after independence as Scotland will have ZERO expenditure on weapons of mass destruction for example.

Even with a limited budget, the SNP government has made a much better use of funds than the UK government. It has not used borrowing powers but simply managed the finances very well.

Sterling belongs as much to Scotland as it belongs to England. In fact any country in the world can use Sterling if it wants to - the UK government has no power to prevent anyone from using sterling. An independent Scotland will use the currency that suits it best. It will get its own currency if and when it wants to.

"Perks of union are retained" won't mean England granting Scotland any favours. Scotland will keep any "perks" which it might be entitled to and which might suit it in the short or long term. Do you know of any country which became independent and completely changed everything from Day 1?
Original post by Midlander
Anglophobia is rife in Scotland


Have you ever visited Scotland?

Have you ever been a victim of Anglophobia in Scotland?

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