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Feminist Frequency

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You build what sells. If you can make a sucessful videogame where men are sexualized and women are the heroes, you get my props. Until then, shut up.

Reply 141

bottled

Original post by Carecup

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

All characters are in second/third year of high school so are 17-18 and if you honestly consider that revealing then you probably don't get out a huge amount. I see girls wearing less when its snowing outside.

Ban JoJo's bizarre adventure too. Most male characters wear homo erotic clothing, do manly men poses aaaand they rup their shirts off.

Ban twilight too. Too many topless men. no Olympic swimming too. Too many sexy men ( no homo fur realz) in speedos

Reply 142

combbrah

Just out of interest, is there even ONE legitimate argument a modern day feminist living in the western world can make? I mean literally I cannot think of a single area of society where women are discriminated against or unfairly treated in 2013 UK, please someone calling themselves a "feminist" enlighten me.

Reply 143

bottled

Original post by hollywoodbudgie

The thing is, he's not even sexualised? So what if he's muscular? Muscles in case you've forgotton, have a purpose. If he's clad in giant armour and having to carry a large weapon of truth and justice then how the hell are you meant to do that if you have arms as thick as a pidegon's legs? Whereas the woman is wearing something like a metal bikini. Unlike the male persona, there is no logic in this whatsoever except to make her more appealing as eye candy.

So no, I'm not arguing against male sexualisation.
If you ever find a game where most of the male characters are in tiny boxers with massive erections and make out with each other every now and then while the female characters save the world then hey, I'll complain about that game being ridiculous too.

Firstly your last point is silly. Only in erotic games will you find women in bikinis making out, that doesn't even happen in dead or alive. And massive erections will only be found in erotic games because er... Erections are highly sexualised and are thus far as no no in games. So thasts as dumb equivalence.
However, JoJo's bizzare adventure is full of them. All looking like sexy men, with rippling muscles and tearing out ta their Shirts to strike a manly pose. But at any rate men tend to be success objectified, look at kratos and what he wears. Dante in dmc 3.That aside, no these men's muscles are extremely out of proportion to a normal run of the mill soldier. And its a fantasy game so I doubt people will care all that much. The sheer majority of characters in many games never wear appropriate clothing. People only wearing vests, or normal tee shirts and killing monsters while getting bashed around.

Reply 144

Nunu Bot

Original post by dartanoir

Right as most of you probably know, the founder of this website http://www.feministfrequency.com recently raised roughly $160000 to do her project which is basically examining female tropes in gaming.
As a fellow feminist I have a couple of major issues with her doing this.

What she is doing isn't revolutionary. There are statistics, information, blogs, whatever dedicated to this issue already. http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2013/01/27/women-remain-outsiders-video-game-industry/275JKqy3rFylT7TxgPmO3K/story.html being one of the examples. Plus anyone who has ever played a video knows that yes - there is an issue. Women are hyper-sexualised, rarely portrayed as anything other than damsel in distress, etc. But basically my point is that we already know all of this.

If you have such an issue with the video game industry that 'exploits' women - why are you pumping thousands of dollars into it by buying the said games? There is plenty of in dept information regarding the games you've discussed AND videos of game play available online.

And lastly my biggest issue with this project is the fact that instead of celebrating strong female characters and empowering women you keep going on and on about how weak and pathetic we are as women, thus enforcing the point made my video games. Yes you raise an issue - but then (like a damsel in distress) wait for others to sort out the mess for you.

Whilst she raises some legitimate points about the gaming industry, they aren't anything new. Also she does not provide any solutions as how we should tackle the issues. I really think of her as a faux-feminist or even a 'keyboard' warrior.
There are so many bigger issues in the world than the portrayal of women in video games. For example literacy rates of women in war zones - $160 000 would be enough to sponsor 44 women for a period of 10 years (this includes school fees for their children, money to set up small businesses, regular access to food and water). Now think about the difference that would make.
So I'm just interested in what other people think of this project - is it beneficial for the women's rights movement, or doesn't it just makes us come across as whiny and picking fault at things that don't matter?

Modern feminism really doesn't get any sympathy from me these days. And Anita Sarkeesian is by far the most credible one recently. Every other feminist seems like more of a male-basher quite frankly.

Reply 145

CJKay

Original post by jreid1994

COUT //"The value of your opinion on the"// first line of text
/gaming industry suddenly diminished to me."/
Seriously C++, Pearl or Java or gtfo.

Posted from TSR Mobile

std::cerr << "Stfu pls your misogyny is really annoying." << std::endl;
Also, Perl*.

@OP: Thunderf00t's reply to her damsel in distress video is briliant. He effectively rips apart her whole video. I cannot even fathom how she could blow £160,000 on something like this... or who would even have donated to her.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 146

Will Lucky

Original post by jreid1994

(.....Fixed it for you here.)

1 question, why should games be geared towards women when women are like 10% of the market? Come on, give me one decent answer without being the socialist thought police. (Also if you haven't exactly noticed muscles are over exaggerated so yes it's is objectification.)

You'll find the number of women actually playing games is somewhat higher than that.

I know many women for example who play MMO's but don't reveal that fact in game so as to avoid the negative attention is tends to draw out.

Reply 147

Tabzqt

Original post by hollywoodbudgie

Oh **** off, how dare you even attempt to compare the the male portrayal of video game characters with females. All common sense should show you that the so called 'sexualisation' of male characters is absolutely nothing in comparison to the female ones. Anyway, for a man to be carrying that much heavy armor and that heavy of a sword, he'd need to be quite buffed up, there is actually some logic behind it. You tell me the logic behind a woman going to war in a flipping metal bikini.

Yes games aren't meant to be real life, thanks for informing me that. I'll write down this new amazing piece of knowledge you've given to me on the front headline of every Metro newspaper I see today so everybody can feel enlightened by your wisdom. :sigh:

someone's getting mad.

Anyway, for a man to be carrying that much heavy armor and that heavy of a sword, he'd need to be quite buffed up, there is actually some logic behind it. You tell me the logic behind a woman going to war in a flipping metal bikini.

Spoiler

Reply 148

miser

Original post by jumpingjesusholycow

My problem with her series tends to revolve around the fact that she doesn't understand (or rather, doesn't want to accept) the fundamental principles of economics. Games are they way they are because they appeal the market that generates them the most profit. And you know what? That's fine, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It appears to her that it's not simply good enough to advocate for the games she wants to see, she has to advocate against the games that aren't tailor made for her in mind and it's this pro-cencorship mentality I can't get on board with. I don't rush in to beauty salons and say "how dare you have only pictures of stylish women on the walls - you have to make this space comfortable for me, otherwise you're discriminating against my gender!"

Don't get me wrong, she has no obligation to like the games she deplores but then, I also don't like the way males are depicted in female-orientated gossip/culture magazines like Glamour. Do I campaign against it? Do I demand that they make their space comfortable for me as an Asian male? No - I respect the fact that they're fulfilling a demand outside of what my thoughts and desires are and that's fine.

But she's not making an appeal to the gaming industry, she's appealing to the consumers. She isn't pro-censorship, she's just highlighting gender inequality in video games - one manifestation of attitudes that still exist in society. Like you say, video games are representative of the market, so her criticisms apply to the market, not to the industry, which merely acts to reflect that market. There's no reason to believe she doesn't understand the 'fundamental principles of economics'.

Reply 149

jreid1994

Original post by CJKay

I have a point she isn't going into the software industry, so why can she complain? If it was a guy saying "why isn't there a game where I can play as a puppy wearing a ski suit?" I'd have said go into computer science and make it yourself. So how am I being misogynistic by saying these things? She can't complain because the gaming market isn't to her taste. Do you see me screaming sexism at chick flicks for having an unrealistic portrayal of men?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 150

miser

After spending 30 mins or so reading through this thread I'm now convinced that it's impossible to have a sensible discussion about feminism on TSR. It's hard to tell whether some people are trolling or genuinely deficient (not that these are mutually exclusive).

About the video: I watched it and thought a lot of what she said was quite interesting, but I'll hold off forming any firm opinions until I'm able to watch Thunderf00t's response to see what he has to say. Certainly gender issues in society are reflected in the video games created for that society, but to what degree her arguments actually highlight them is unknown to me. Regardless of that, I'm glad she's spreading awareness and object to the idea that she's giving feminism a bad name - the more people pay attention and think critically about gender issues, the more the cause of feminism will be strengthened. As far as that goes, she's certainly adding support to the movement.

Reply 151

miser

Original post by jreid1994

Speaking as a computer scientist, your claim that you have to be a computer scientist to talk about gender issues makes no sense to me. Do you have to work in the film industry to criticise the portrayal of women in film?

Reply 152

bottled

Original post by miser

the more people pay attention and think critically about gender issues, the more the cause of feminism will be strengthened. As far as that goes, she's certainly adding support to the movement.

I disagree. her points were highly subjective, and if you were to watch thundefoot's video, you'll see how flawed her arguments are.

Her poor arguments and handling of her show puts feminists into a bad light as people begin to associate feminism with people like her (who note, takes offence to the powerpuff girls, bayonetta and Lego. And nes games which relied on clichés).

And also I seldom see 'mentally deficient' posts on feminist threads. Not unless of course you're disregarding posts which back up logical arguments with facts and statistics. I'm not gonna call every person who disagrees with my point, or just doesn't understand what I'm saying 'mentally deficient' because they replied to my cdc statistics with some BS RAINN stats.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 153

bottled

Original post by hollywoodbudgie

I'm just getting annoyed that so many people are trying to argue against me when I say that a lot of female characters in games are just there for eye candy and thus a girl playing such a game has a right to get annoyed.

And again, I'd like to disagree with your point. You could argue that every npc in every game is simply there for eye candy. (unless we're talking guilty gear XX), as every npc is simply there to provide atmosphere and make the world you're looking at more interesting.
Moreover, what is inherently wrong about giving girls sexy outfits. It doesn't demean them or else bayonetta and say Judith(tales of vesperia) would've received less fan reaction
. I'm not saying you lack the right to be annoyed at character designs as I too get annoyed at that.
But to make the large bold point that MOST women are there for eye candy is inaccurate. I mean, sorry if I get rambly. But suppose I play an mmorpg. When I customise my character, I always go for the style that I would like to see my avatar wear the most.

Reply 154

miser

Original post by bottled

I disagree. her points were highly subjective, and if you were to watch thundefoot's video, you'll see how flawed her arguments are.

I'll be able to watch it when I get home. I don't want to argue too much about her video without also listening to the criticisms so I hope you'll permit that of me.

Original post by bottled

Her poor arguments and handling of her show puts feminists into a bad light as people begin to associate feminism with people like her (who note, takes offence to the powerpuff girls, bayonetta and Lego. And nes games which relied on clichés).

I agree that certain feminists give feminism a bad name, and that feminism is currently suffering from severe image problems in the general public, but she did not strike me by any means as one of these extreme feminists. She had her arguments which she presented; she didn't advocate any extreme stances (e.g., banning games), but merely promoted awareness of what she perceived some of the issues to be. People should be quite able to determine whether they agree or disagree with her points, especially when people have made replies to it. What she was doing was encouraging critical discussion, which I'm all for (whether I'm in agreement or not).

Original post by bottled

And also I seldom see 'mentally deficient' posts on feminist threads. Not unless of course you're disregarding posts which back up logical arguments with facts and statistics. I'm not gonna call every person who disagrees with my point, or just doesn't understand what I'm saying 'mentally deficient' because they replied to my cdc statistics with some BS RAINN stats.

Neither would I refer to everyone that way. Certain posts in this thread have boggled my mind, however.

Reply 155

truffle_girl

Original post by hollywoodbudgie

What you need to understand that it's incredibly off putting for girls when playing games to have fun when a lot of the female characters in games either seem like complete wimpy princesses or overly powerful hookers.

Just as you insist you don't speak for all feminists, perhaps you should refrain from claiming you speak for all girls, too? Oh, and aren't feminists usually the first to insist that men are more violent? Aren't men more likely to be into fighting, so to speak? If so, isn't it realistic, to portray men as being the ones fighting? At least the idea of a man saving a woman is admirable. Feminists criticise men for not doing enough to help violence against women, and yet when a noble image is promoted, it's wrong, too.

Try to imagine this. Call of duty, where all the male characters are in tight boxers with raging erections and have oiled muscular bodies. Oh and they sometimes make out with each other. Would you enjoy playing such a game?

I seriously doubt any guy would care about this. When the genders are reversed in many of the case scenarios that feminists complain about, men don't tend to mind. Oh, and a raging erection is a different matter, being as it implies sexual excitement.

Well, contrary to popular belief, a lot of girls do enjoy playing games, however, because of the above style scenarios and the repeat belief that games are tailored purely for a male audience, a lot of women get off playing such games. Then the gaming industry sees a lack of female gamers, and thus makes more games tailored for men. This is a cycle, and an unfortunate one as females make up 50% of the population- there's a lot more potential gamers out there.

So, you know more about the games market, than the games market, itself? Incredible! Maybe you're putting the cart before the horse? Many adverts are aimed at women, and belittle men. Many chatshows (think 'Loose Women') are aimed at women, and belittle men. Are you all up in arms, complaining about the unfairness here? Or saying how just as many men would watch such shows, but are put off by their portrayal in which?

No, he wouldn't need to be that buffed up; the body image presented of male characters in video games tends to be unrealistic, too. It's true that there is a discrepancy, in that female characters are MORE sexualised, but really, if there's a mainly-male audience, that's GOING to be the case. Personally, I'd much rather see female characters sexualised, than see female characters portrayed as dim-witted buffoons, as often happens with men in adverts and sitcoms. If feminists complained about both, then feminists would be more respected.

Reply 156

Nunu Bot

Original post by Algorithm69

You have an anime icon and are a member of the anime society, and you're complaining that video games don't include people who feel real?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Original post by Robbie242

Feminism just doesn't work though, its horribly unbalanced due to the extreme-feminazi's. I hate anything that directly dedicated to one gender, I extremely respect Emmeline Pankhurst, Millicent Fawcett/ Frances Mary Buss etc but modern day feminism is just dead, the majority of the opportunities have being claimed and now even stereotypes are going against men, the most controversial ones of course being domestic violence and rape

That's true, modern feminists are just male haters.

Original post by dartanoir

Just because it's something that you don't personally experience, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other people. Obviously I realise that most of the time the threats aren't serious but it still makes me feel uneasy and uncomfortable.

Please, please stop..

Original post by dartanoir

That is not feminism! Not even close.
Not all of us are misinformed radical misandrists you know :tongue:

But it just so happens that those who are, are the loudest and bring a bad name to the rest of us.

Why have I never seen a feminist that stands up and says "I'm not one of them!" then?

You complain about the radicals giving you a bad name, but the non-radicals don't speak out in the first place. So you so-called "normal" feminists only have yourselves to blame. Something isn't quite right with what you're telling us.

Original post by hollywoodbudgie

I couldn't care less if that's the impression you're getting of feminism because common sense should tell you not to judge an entire social movement spanning from the early 17th century onwards via a single student forum user's writing style. If someone honestly thinks the core values to feminism is writing angry posts on a forum rather than tackling issues like domestic abuse, genital mutilation, rape, inequality in education, forced marriages and so forth then really... do I give a crap about what someone so ignorant thinks?

The movement that started from those times is not the same as today's. Back in the day, they really did have something to complain about: voting, property ownership, legal discrimination, the list goes on... Now what we have with feminism are women who are angry for no reason trying to find things to have a good moan about. In essence what I'm saying here is that the people who boil it down to having a moan on the forum are not ignorant, but they are only taking to account modern day feminism rather than the old school because we see the old school as a completely different movement and motive.

Ironically, you sounded angry in that post, go figure.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 157

bottled

Original post by miser

What she was doing was encouraging critical discussion, which I'm all for (whether I'm in agreement or not).
.

Which i would normally agree too except she has a certain habit of deleting videos which no one agrees with, closes down comments on her kickstarter page when it seemed it'll generate no more money, gave minimal details about the delays in her videos, and each reply requires moderation before it is allowed into the comment box. I mean look at her original videos, she closed down the youtube comments. People are now simply forced to either create reply videos or make threads such as these.

she reminsd me of those tumblr feminists who say something down right stupid and post ignorant gifs when confronted

Original post by miser

I'll be able to watch it when I get home. I don't want to argue too much about her video without also listening to the criticisms so I hope you'll permit that of me.

hell no. get off that computer you cant watch that video trust me!!!!111111!1!!1!

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 158

sarahthegemini

Original post by dartanoir

If I am so 'butt ugly' and 'out of shape' how would you explain constant cat calling, threats of rape, and groping?

It's quite pathetic that you use that to try to prove you're not "butt ugly" :lolwut:

Reply 159

miser

Original post by bottled

I don't know anything about those activities, but if true then that's a criticism of her rather than her arguments. That kind of behaviour isn't necessarily applicable to feminism, unless you'd say feminism had a culture of it, which in general I don't think it does (there is for example a lot of discussion on the blogosphere). Radical feminism may be an exception as it operates in closed (self-affirming) circles.

Original post by sarahthegemini

It's quite pathetic that you use that to try to prove you're not "butt ugly" :lolwut:

She wasn't trying to defend her image (I doubt she cares what 'uktotalgamer' thinks), but she was pointing out the incongruity of such a ridiculous argument (that a person must be ugly to care about the treatment of women). Unattractive women receive their share of harassment too, and in some ways it can be more severe, as men can all collectively agree themselves to be 'above' the woman whom they're degrading. Examples are 'fat girl rodeo' and 'pull a pig', which I've personally encountered.