Who is better? Ferguson or Mourinho?
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Original post by _HabibaH_
If a player chooses Madrid over United or vice versa, it's understandable. Different climates, family preference, vision, style of play and pay (beyond means) are not things that the manager can control so if his decision included these factors, it's hardly Sir Alex's 'cock up'.
Madrid have done good with him though, while the likes of Hazard are festering away albeit a rare satisfying appearance.
Madrid have done good with him though, while the likes of Hazard are festering away albeit a rare satisfying appearance.
Read my post again. You're saying the same thing I'm saying.
If Varane snubbed United after they had actually tried to sign him then it's not a cock up. If United backed out of the deal themselves before he joined Madrid then he's one that got away so that's a cock up.
Original post by Wilfred Little
Are you serious? Deco was already a European Cup winner and it was Scolari who signed him for Chelsea. Mourinho didn't join Porto until 2002 and Deco was already at Porto then.
My bad. Mourinho didn't sign Deco or Carvalho.
Ferguson has had his hands tied and still challenges for the top honours. He saw off Mourinho at Chelsea, Rafa at Liverpool and the billions of Man. City.
To be fair though, Fergie has generally been well backed financially throughout his Man Utd career. He has broken the transfer record a few times.
I personally think that the main reason Mourinho lost the PL in 06/07 was because Shevchenko was forced onto him. So he had to resort to a diamond midfield to accomodate Ballack and Shevchenko. Which was a far contrast to the Chelsea from 04-06 that focus on width and wingplay through the likes of Robben.
But yeah, Fergie deserves credit for consistent dominance of the PL despite moneybags trying to get the title off him for good.
You cannot use transfers as to why Mourinho is good, if Mancini signed Messi it'd improve the team but you couldn't use it as evidence of him being good in the transfer market because everyone and their nan knows Messi is good and every manager in the world would sign him if they could. That goes for pretty much all the players you named, Varane aside.
I'll slightly concede to your point here. Maybe I should compromise and take into account a manager's ability to spot raw talent that can be developed. And in that case, you have a strong argument that Fergie and Wenger are better than Mourinho in the transfer market.
However, I still maintain that Mourinho is better tactically and has better motivational and man-management skills. For those reasons, he edges it for me over Fergie. But yes, Fergie is better at building teams, especially from scratch and rebuilding them over long periods of time.
I voted for Fergy with a heavy heart (Arsenal fan).
I disagreed with a couple of your points - Whilst they've won the CL the same amount of times, most of the infrastructure was already in place for Mourinho whereas Fergy built his team up for it completely from scratch both times.
Also, on man management, have you seen some of the half time speeches Fergy gives out on important games? I think for the same reason you found it unfair to judge Fergy/Mourinho based on something when they've been doing it for different amount of times, you can't just say that players love Mourinho more. Have you ever loved your boss at first? Then worked for him for 10 years and hated him?
I disagreed with a couple of your points - Whilst they've won the CL the same amount of times, most of the infrastructure was already in place for Mourinho whereas Fergy built his team up for it completely from scratch both times.
Also, on man management, have you seen some of the half time speeches Fergy gives out on important games? I think for the same reason you found it unfair to judge Fergy/Mourinho based on something when they've been doing it for different amount of times, you can't just say that players love Mourinho more. Have you ever loved your boss at first? Then worked for him for 10 years and hated him?
Original post by Hal.E.Lujah
I voted for Fergy with a heavy heart (Arsenal fan).
I disagreed with a couple of your points - Whilst they've won the CL the same amount of times, most of the infrastructure was already in place for Mourinho whereas Fergy built his team up for it completely from scratch both times.
Also, on man management, have you seen some of the half time speeches Fergy gives out on important games? I think for the same reason you found it unfair to judge Fergy/Mourinho based on something when they've been doing it for different amount of times, you can't just say that players love Mourinho more. Have you ever loved your boss at first? Then worked for him for 10 years and hated him?
I disagreed with a couple of your points - Whilst they've won the CL the same amount of times, most of the infrastructure was already in place for Mourinho whereas Fergy built his team up for it completely from scratch both times.
Also, on man management, have you seen some of the half time speeches Fergy gives out on important games? I think for the same reason you found it unfair to judge Fergy/Mourinho based on something when they've been doing it for different amount of times, you can't just say that players love Mourinho more. Have you ever loved your boss at first? Then worked for him for 10 years and hated him?
That second point is sonething I was going to say. Plus how many times do you see Man U score late goals? That's a belief and determination Ferguson instilled into the players.
What about the handling of Ronaldo and Cantona? The nurturing of Solskjaer (putting him on Keane's team all the time in training until he snapped to get him to come out of his shell and stick up for himself more), I have heard a story of him allowing a player to stop at his house before. He is a brilliant man manager. Mourinho is also though.
Cable I agree on the tactician bit. Playing so open cost Man U in Europe for years and years. It was only in about 2006 when Quieroz was at the club I think it was that they started approaching games differently.
Also you have 5 points in the opening post, declare Fergie superior in three of them yet say Mourinho is better? Lol you might wanna change that.
Original post by Wilfred Little
So Guardiola isn't one of the great managers in the world today? Do you know what contemporary means? You made the link between him and being an all-time great, not me. And that's not what I've said.
Guardiola has done it at one club for 3 seasons, while he changed the culture of the club it's not that hard to do at barca with the youth system he's got. Oh and he's pretty dire in the transfer market too, sanchez, chryginskiy, cacares but he's obviously a genius in building a team
No they weren't.
Did you watch the second leg of the chelsea barca game in 2009
Did you watch the first leg of the madrid barca game in 2011
Did you watch the arsenal barca match in 2011. Basically I'm saying all teams get a bit of luck. How was mourinho lucky to win it with inter? Oh and he faced deportivo in the semis which was a hard game, they beat milan who were italian champions that year so it wasn't an easy ride and they came 3rd in the league 6 points behind valencia
No they weren't, United were, get your facts straight.
He had an easy time in the league at inter but he won the CL to make up for it there's no way you can discount that
I didn't say he was lucky in every trophy I won, you implied his trophy record speaks for itself when it doesn't, if you analyse them a bit further they aren't as impressive as they seem at first glance or on paper. Inter were already great, to take over a champion team and win the league with them isn't as much of an achievement as taking a team that hasn't won the league for 26 years and then winning it 12 times in 26 years.
Of course fergie has done great, but tbh mourinho hasn't had too much time to show how good he is. If you're saying guardiola is better well barca won the CL 3 years before he came, it's not a problem, give mourinho a few seasons at a club to build a dynasty. Right now he's a trophy magnet but the only thing missing in his game is longevity at a club, after say 5-10 years keeping a club at the top he's trumped every manager in existence
Ferguson is better, it's that simple.
Guardiola has done it at one club for 3 seasons, while he changed the culture of the club it's not that hard to do at barca with the youth system he's got. Oh and he's pretty dire in the transfer market too, sanchez, chryginskiy, cacares but he's obviously a genius in building a team
No they weren't.
Did you watch the second leg of the chelsea barca game in 2009
Did you watch the first leg of the madrid barca game in 2011
Did you watch the arsenal barca match in 2011. Basically I'm saying all teams get a bit of luck. How was mourinho lucky to win it with inter? Oh and he faced deportivo in the semis which was a hard game, they beat milan who were italian champions that year so it wasn't an easy ride and they came 3rd in the league 6 points behind valencia
No they weren't, United were, get your facts straight.
He had an easy time in the league at inter but he won the CL to make up for it there's no way you can discount that
I didn't say he was lucky in every trophy I won, you implied his trophy record speaks for itself when it doesn't, if you analyse them a bit further they aren't as impressive as they seem at first glance or on paper. Inter were already great, to take over a champion team and win the league with them isn't as much of an achievement as taking a team that hasn't won the league for 26 years and then winning it 12 times in 26 years.
Of course fergie has done great, but tbh mourinho hasn't had too much time to show how good he is. If you're saying guardiola is better well barca won the CL 3 years before he came, it's not a problem, give mourinho a few seasons at a club to build a dynasty. Right now he's a trophy magnet but the only thing missing in his game is longevity at a club, after say 5-10 years keeping a club at the top he's trumped every manager in existence
Ferguson is better, it's that simple.
Bits in bold.
Original post by Wilfred Little
Also you have 5 points in the opening post, declare Fergie superior in three of them yet say Mourinho is better? Lol you might wanna change that.
Nah. I said that Mourinho and Fergie were superior in two of them each. But they were equal in trophies won.
The trophies won department wasn't solely based on how many trophies were won which was why I said that it would be unfair if we declared Fergie the victor.
While Fergie has won more trophies (which is understandable since he has managed for a longer period of time), Mourinho's 'trophy winning' is just as incredible.
He's the first manager to have won all domestic trophies in four european countries. And three of them have arguably the best leagues in the world (England, Italy and Spain). The fact that Mourinho has won all domestic trophies in four countries is a huge testament to his incredible ability to adapt to different football styles. Like I already said before, he has won two CLs in a shorter space of time. Additionally, Porto and Inter were not as financially strong as teams like Madrid. No-one thought they would win the CL when they were in the group stages. Yet Mourinho won CLs with both of them. Let's not forget he has set records in some of the leagues he has managed in. Moreover, he was the first to win The Treble in Italy (league title, Coppa Italia & Champions League title).
That's why I feel Fergie and Mourinho are equal in the trophy winning department.
But like I said before, Mourinho edges it for me for his tactical nous, man-management skills and his incredible success in a short space of time.
(edited 11 years ago)
Is this even debatable??? Mourinho was unbeaten in home games for 10 consecutive years. No other manager in history has done that. Looking at the age difference, Mourinho has won more trophies than Ferguson did when he was Mourinho's age. He's called "The Special One" for a reason. Jose Mourinho is the greatest manager in history.
I'd say Fergie at the moment but I could have easily voted Mourinho.
Mourinho is pretty ridiculous, in three of the leagues he's managed (English, Spanish and Portugese) he holds the record points tally in a season, he hasn't gone a season without a trophy since 2002, he went nine ****ing years without losing a home match in the League, first manager to win the Italian version of the treble etc etc. If he carries on like this he'll overtake Fergie in my eyes sooner rather than later.
Mourinho is pretty ridiculous, in three of the leagues he's managed (English, Spanish and Portugese) he holds the record points tally in a season, he hasn't gone a season without a trophy since 2002, he went nine ****ing years without losing a home match in the League, first manager to win the Italian version of the treble etc etc. If he carries on like this he'll overtake Fergie in my eyes sooner rather than later.
SAF's story is just something special for a manager
If you pitted both men against each other, Mourinho comes out on top as he has a very good head-to-head record vs. SAF.
If I had to choose, I'd probably go with Ferguson. For him to achieve what he has, at one club, for 26 years and still be wanting more is something that won't be achieved again in the game. Like people have pointed, the culture he changed at the club but also evolving as a coach, embracing technology and science to better his squad, building 4/5 teams over the years, handling volatile characters and being ruthless enough to discard them when they got too much, and bringing through younger players into world stars such as Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes.
Mourinho is very difficult not to admire. His trophy haul is I think, half of what SAF's won in a shorter space of time but he could beat it if he carries on in this vein. He's had these pitstops over Europe (starting off in Portugal, England, Italy, Spain) and won trophies but the fact that he's not carried on at a club for whatever reason, to win more, build a new team, bring in players from the youth system etc means there is a doubt hanging over him whether he can deliver success over a prolonged period at the very top.
He's at Real Madrid now, probably the biggest club in the world and one that has a tremendous attention on it from the local media. If he leaves at the end of this season, he'll go to another club and probably move on again from there.
People talk about Varane, is that really a vindicating reason to say Mourinho favours youth? Varane only joined Madrid because Zidane talked and encouraged him to join not because Mourinho was so desperate to have him. Only at Porto, you could say Mourinho worked and developed Portuguese players but at Chelsea, Inter, Madrid - which youth players from those clubs has he integrated or worked with into the first team? I can't think of any.
He has said he wants to be at a club for a long period and if he does that, i.e stay for more than three years and accomplishes success whilst rebuilding teams, nurturing youth and experienced players and wins trophies at the highest level then I'd say Jose over Ferguson.
But that last paragraph, is one that remains to be seen.
If I had to choose, I'd probably go with Ferguson. For him to achieve what he has, at one club, for 26 years and still be wanting more is something that won't be achieved again in the game. Like people have pointed, the culture he changed at the club but also evolving as a coach, embracing technology and science to better his squad, building 4/5 teams over the years, handling volatile characters and being ruthless enough to discard them when they got too much, and bringing through younger players into world stars such as Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes.
Mourinho is very difficult not to admire. His trophy haul is I think, half of what SAF's won in a shorter space of time but he could beat it if he carries on in this vein. He's had these pitstops over Europe (starting off in Portugal, England, Italy, Spain) and won trophies but the fact that he's not carried on at a club for whatever reason, to win more, build a new team, bring in players from the youth system etc means there is a doubt hanging over him whether he can deliver success over a prolonged period at the very top.
He's at Real Madrid now, probably the biggest club in the world and one that has a tremendous attention on it from the local media. If he leaves at the end of this season, he'll go to another club and probably move on again from there.
People talk about Varane, is that really a vindicating reason to say Mourinho favours youth? Varane only joined Madrid because Zidane talked and encouraged him to join not because Mourinho was so desperate to have him. Only at Porto, you could say Mourinho worked and developed Portuguese players but at Chelsea, Inter, Madrid - which youth players from those clubs has he integrated or worked with into the first team? I can't think of any.
He has said he wants to be at a club for a long period and if he does that, i.e stay for more than three years and accomplishes success whilst rebuilding teams, nurturing youth and experienced players and wins trophies at the highest level then I'd say Jose over Ferguson.
But that last paragraph, is one that remains to be seen.
Ferguson just bullies his way to glory.
Original post by Kenan and Kel
SAF's story is just something special for a manager
I can easily say that mourinho's was much better. He was an assistant and interpreter for robson then turned into a winning trophy machine. Similar to AVB.
Original post by Aky786UK
x
Agree wholly with your points. Well I'd say mourinho certainly has a lot more potential than SAF ever did. But tbh this is his early stage of management, he's won 2 CL's in 6 years with very weak clubs, you can spout guardiola all day but jose had no right to win it with those clubs, he had no right to even get past the quarter finals with either club yet he won it with them in such an exceptional manner.
Best tactician and man motivator there is. However he just needs to stay at a club. It's kind of unfair on him though as the clubs he's worked at (porto he needs a bigger stage), him being chelsea's longest serving manager under abramovich, inter don't give people time they've gone through 3 managers in 2 seasons and are probably gonna sack the fourth in a couple of weeks time and real madrid where managers get sacked for winning the champions league and winning the league too defensively or not fitting the right image.
Point is mourinho can't get time at those clubs.
Original post by jam277
Agree wholly with your points. Well I'd say mourinho certainly has a lot more potential than SAF ever did. But tbh this is his early stage of management, he's won 2 CL's in 6 years with very weak clubs, you can spout guardiola all day but jose had no right to win it with those clubs, he had no right to even get past the quarter finals with either club yet he won it with them in such an exceptional manner.
Best tactician and man motivator there is. However he just needs to stay at a club. It's kind of unfair on him though as the clubs he's worked at (porto he needs a bigger stage), him being chelsea's longest serving manager under abramovich, inter don't give people time they've gone through 3 managers in 2 seasons and are probably gonna sack the fourth in a couple of weeks time and real madrid where managers get sacked for winning the champions league and winning the league too defensively or not fitting the right image.
Point is mourinho can't get time at those clubs.
Best tactician and man motivator there is. However he just needs to stay at a club. It's kind of unfair on him though as the clubs he's worked at (porto he needs a bigger stage), him being chelsea's longest serving manager under abramovich, inter don't give people time they've gone through 3 managers in 2 seasons and are probably gonna sack the fourth in a couple of weeks time and real madrid where managers get sacked for winning the champions league and winning the league too defensively or not fitting the right image.
Point is mourinho can't get time at those clubs.
You serious?
I can see your point with Porto, but Inter? That was a superb squad.
Original post by Cable
These guys are two of the greatest of all time and have given me many fond memories. I acknowledge that there are other great managers (e.g. Del Bosque, Cappello back in the day, Paisley etc) but I'm assuming that most guys on TSR would have more knowledge on Jose and Fergie than other great managers and better knowledge at that since they would have witnessed Fergie and Jose at their best in the last one or two decades (but they wouldn't have the best and clearest knowledge on someone like Happel or Trappattoni).
I personally think Jose is a better manager/coach than Fergie. I know Fergie is greater (more trophies) but I think Jose is better.
Why? It depends on how you define what is a good manager/coach.
My criteria is this: Trophies won, man-management skills, tactical nous, ability to build great teams and ability to rebuild teams.
1) Trophies won: Fergie = Mourinho
2) Man-management skills: Mourinho > Fergie
3) Tactical nous: Mourinho > Fergie
4) Ability to build great teams: Fergie > Mourinho
5) Ability to rebuild teams. Fergie > Mourinho
So yeah, I feel Mourinho is slightly better than Fergie. But that doesn't diminish the fact that they are both exceptional managers and we have been lucky to be alive to witness both of them. Yes, they have their flaws and can be ****s sometimes (Jose particularly). But their achievements in the game deserves serious respect.
Who do you think is the better manager between Fergie and Mourinho? Vote in the poll. And what are your reasons?
I personally think Jose is a better manager/coach than Fergie. I know Fergie is greater (more trophies) but I think Jose is better.
Why? It depends on how you define what is a good manager/coach.
My criteria is this: Trophies won, man-management skills, tactical nous, ability to build great teams and ability to rebuild teams.
1) Trophies won: Fergie = Mourinho
Spoiler
2) Man-management skills: Mourinho > Fergie
Spoiler
3) Tactical nous: Mourinho > Fergie
Spoiler
4) Ability to build great teams: Fergie > Mourinho
Spoiler
5) Ability to rebuild teams. Fergie > Mourinho
Spoiler
So yeah, I feel Mourinho is slightly better than Fergie. But that doesn't diminish the fact that they are both exceptional managers and we have been lucky to be alive to witness both of them. Yes, they have their flaws and can be ****s sometimes (Jose particularly). But their achievements in the game deserves serious respect.
Who do you think is the better manager between Fergie and Mourinho? Vote in the poll. And what are your reasons?
On what planet is Mourinho's man-management better than Fergies? I mean come on, have you not been watching Real Madrid this season?! Half the players can't wait to see the back of Mourinho and he doesn't even have control of the dressing room. Fergie would never ever allow that to happen, he is always the one in charge.
Original post by Four Queue
You serious?
I can see your point with Porto, but Inter? That was a superb squad.
I can see your point with Porto, but Inter? That was a superb squad.
Superb squad, with the likes of chelsea, barca and madrid with better squads that year. They peaked at the same time and they had the potential to win it(like arsenal did around 04-09) but they were not the strongest team. Inter's squad would not have got past the quarter finals without mourinho's guidance.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by tr12
On what planet is Mourinho's man-management better than Fergies? I mean come on, have you not been watching Real Madrid this season?! Half the players can't wait to see the back of Mourinho and he doesn't even have control of the dressing room. Fergie would never ever allow that to happen, he is always the one in charge.
Well tbh who can get control of the dressing room in real madrid? Fergie built this team, mourinho didn't build the real madrid team quite a lot of the players were either from pellegrini or from a long time ago. Only ozil and di maria are starters that mourinho specifically brought in. Maybe coentrao too but it's 50/50 with marcelo.
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