Trans woman commits suicide after being bullied by the Daily Mail

well I hope he's proud of himself, he's got blood on his hands now.

People are born into the wrong bodies?

Surely, apart from the VERY rare cases, you either have two x chromosones, or an x and y. Thus you are either male or female.

Can you link me to a study which proves beyond doubt this can be the case? (that someone can be born in the wrong body?)

The Daily Mail is vile, and Richard LittleJohn is an utter prick.

The DM is an atrocious rag, I wish people would just boycott it.

I'm not going to start sharpening the pitchforks ready for Littlejohn just yet. He's an objectionable git that I really despise, but we don't know the circumstances of Lucy Meadows' apparent suicide - it may not have been directly related to the article, so I'm not going to jump to conclusions. But at the same time, it's worth noting that Littlejohn's article, the Mail and its readership should be ashamed for perpetuating this transphobic hate. It's a disgrace that it was ever published in the first place and it's unbelievably trite that they've taken the article down only after her death.

What's sad is that a woman has felt it necessary to kill herself, and if this has been as a result of transphobia, then this is extremely regrettable in this day and age.

There is a problem here that has become increasingly prevalent with troubled individuals and isn't limited to the particular circumstances here.

Leaving aside the pillorying in the press, the actual suggestion Littlejohn made; that there should be a clean break in her professional life with her starting to teach elsewhere on presenting as female with new appearance and a new name, was an eminently sensible one. The problem is that no-one who had responsibility for her felt able to bring her privately to the wisdom of that course of action.

Her employers didn't because although they had duties of care to her and to the children, it was easier and safer in a litigious world to discharge those duties of care by doing nothing. Those responsible for her psychological care care didn't, presumably taking the view that it wasn't for them to tell her how to live her life. She ploughed on seemingly oblivious to the effect it would have on the children and how the matter would be perceived by adults in the school. As a result a colleague or a parent unhappy at the way the matter was being handled at the school went to the press.

Now someone is dead because no-one was willing to stand up to her and say privately that performing a gender switch in the face of children who up to that point had understood gender to be binary and immutable was inappropriate.

I'm of the same opinion but it surely says something that the publishers themselves feel it necessary to remove the article and so, therefore, must feel responsible in some way.

Unpolitically correct opinion coming here (and kneejerk negs no doubt too), but if such a significant proportion of transgender people kill themselves each year, should we perhaps question the extent to which we as a society should encourage people to change gender.

you have the situation completly the wrong way round... Soiety doesnt incorage people to change their gender.. infact, the reason trans people kill themselves, is because society makes it so so hard to do so.

Its not easy, or encoraged at all to transition.. it makes life very very hard, and requres a huge investment in time/money to do so.. and you have to jump through many many many hoops laid out by the NHS/law/your job etc..

Could there not be something inherent in the experience that is liable to lead to a greater incidence of mental health problems?
yes.. the terrible reactions they get from other people.. most trans people find it hard enough to cope with how they feel about themselves.. having terrible abuse from others, just pushe

Yes, black people face discrimination too, but they can't change their skin colour, so our only option to deal with racism is to encourage people to be less racist, and of course we should do that -- but, sad to say, we're failing there too, we still live in a racist society! Human nature is malleable but not endlessly so, there are limits to which we can eradicate our baser instincts; we certainly can't do it overnight.

I hate the DM as much as the next poster, I loathe Richard Littlejohn, but I also think we need to question the assumption that "gender identity" is inherent and immutable. All human behaviour and thought is conditioned by environment.

If its enviromental, then a lot of enviroments have the right factors.. considering transsexualism has been observed in most modern coutnries, and throught thousands of years of our human history...(either way, enviromentla or medical (most edvidence leads to medical) - its still not a choice.. and people shouldnt be abused into suicide for it...

A woman may sincerely believe that she is "at core" (whatever that means, it certainly raises its own philosophical points about the nature of identity) a man, but I don't think that implies that that belief is the only belief she could hold through her entire life, or that it's necessarily a healthy belief.
I believe that homosexuality is mainly influenced by environmental influences [in combination with one's natural make-up], but I don't see anything much wrong with homosexuality, so I don't see that as a problem, as everything that I am has likewise mainly been influenced by my environment. Just because I think that the fact that I'm on the left of the political spectrum is probably mainly caused by environmental factors rather than specific genes or bio-reductionist nonsense like that doesn't mean that I see anything wrong with being on the left, quite the opposite. However, it does imply that had things been otherwise, I could well have been a fascist bastard (perhaps you think I am anyway! ) or a libertarian or an anarcho-communist.

Perhaps most people who have gender identity issues could go and have talk therapy or something, but changing one's entire body and thereby perhaps entire notion of oneself is such a big (and generally irreversible) step to take, that it's unsurprising that so many people find it hard to deal with it.

they have tried this.. over and over, for the past 60 years... And we all, (all us trans people) want it to be possible.

It would save money, time, hassle.. and be brilliant! - sadly though, its never been shown to work, or be effective.. and trans people remain trans..

We also need to accept the limits of medical science: where it can do good, that's great, but surgery cannot necessarily create the human form that you have in your head, as much as we all might like that to be the case in a perfect world (though in a perfect world, surely there'd be no need for surgery, but anyway...).
trans people who reach the point of sugery, are well aware of how they will end up... to get to that point you have to go through so much, and spend such a large amount of time under specialist care, you are well aware of whats going on, and what to expect.
For those who can deal with the transition and with society's inescapable reaction to it, however, and don't have consequent mental health issues, I guess I have no problem, but because of the risks, I wouldn't be so carefree about encouraging people to act on their desires to change themselves so radically. I have lots of desires, often quite fundamental (indeed natural) ones, that I know would be harmful to act upon.
for those people who are trans, but to weak to deal with the consiquence.. they have no good option, its not as simple as just not transitioning.. the mental effects of Gender-identity disorder, or Gender dysphoria, are painfull and mentally crippling... - its the case for most trans people, of transition or die. - as living with this amount of pain, isnt worth living.
I'm sure we have quite different opinions, but I hope you can at least engage with what I say, and I'll try to engage sincerely with your point of view too.

EDIT: I want to make clear that I'm not attacking you as a person in this post btw, far from it. I do very much hope that you're able to cope with whatever life throws at you. I certainly can't! We're all struggling to find meaning in this incomprehensible world, we all have our problems, but we're all ultimately striving after the same sorts of things. And, likewise, a thread about a suicide isn't maybe the best place to air my views on this, but I don't think I've been insensitive, not consciously anyway.

Should be noted though that transsexuals kill themselves every year. Often linked to the hormones they take which can essentially kill their libido. On top of that what can also contribute to severe depression is they are unhappy with how their new appearance.


I'd be suprised if an article by this spammer had much to do with it. He has been blabbing about LGTB people for years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/nov/10/1 (first paragraph), and you know what they say about people who continuously talk about such things.

Managing PR, I think. Even if they aren't directly responsible, they want to minimise their exposure to criticism. Too late for that.

Yes, but changing your entire sex is more than just being who you want.

We have to ask, what is the cost of this on the NHS.

Do they have a moral obligation to tell their futre partners,

ect

, then this is extremely regrettable in this day and age.

Unpolitically correct opinion coming here (and kneejerk negs no doubt too), but if such a significant proportion of transgender people kill themselves each year, should we perhaps question the extent to which we as a society should encourage people to change gender.

Could there not be something inherent in the experience that is liable to lead to a greater incidence of mental health problems?

Yes, black people face discrimination too, but they can't change their skin colour, so our only option to deal with racism is to encourage people to be less racist, and of course we should do that -- but, sad to say, we're failing there too, we still live in a racist society! Human nature is malleable but not endlessly so, there are limits to which we can eradicate our baser instincts; we certainly can't do it overnight.

I hate the DM as much as the next poster, I loathe Richard Littlejohn, but I also think we need to question the assumption that "gender identity" is inherent and immutable.

All human behaviour and thought is conditioned by environment.

A woman may sincerely believe that she is "at core" (whatever that means, it certainly raises its own philosophical points about the nature of identity) a man

Yes, but changing your entire sex is more than just being who you want.

We have to ask, what is the cost of this on the NHS.

Do they have a moral obligation to tell their futre partners,

ect