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Studying Medicine Abroad

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I'm saying the concept itself is corrupt, if a medical school aims to make it easier to pass than another, how will that end up in better patient care?

I would say the same of a UK medical school.

Have you not considered that maybe they have inadvertently made it harder to pass in one of the faculties, as opposed to making it easier in the other? I have never heard of a med school making it easy to pass, however I have heard of schools making their course harder. For example at Copenhagen it is a lot harder to get a 7 (considered a reasonable score, the scores go from 0 to 12) in the med course than at Aarhus, just because of the marking standards or something (or the other way round, can't remember). It doesn't mean you come out a worse doctor at either, you just come out with a different score history. Whether that score history impacts on your ability to get jobs you want later, I actually do not know. Though from what I've seen about the point just being to pass, I'd guess not.

Edit: Moreover, using a UK example, I've seen it said fairly frequently that the workload is higher/more intensive at Oxbridge. This is apparently in part due to covering stuff in shorter terms but that is irrelevant here. It might mean that you are less likely to pass at Oxford or Cambridge due to the workload and stress (amongst other things - I don't know how much med students are expected to churn out frequent essays like other students) than at other places. Would you therefore judge someone for not applying there on the basis of it being a heavier workload? Plenty of people do just that.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 21

Brachioradialis

Original post by Ronove

For the Foundation programme it certainly would, since you're ranked relative to your cohort (and not the actual medical school).

Edit: Moreover, using a UK example, I've seen it said fairly frequently that the workload is higher/more intensive at Oxbridge. This is apparently in part due to covering stuff in shorter terms but that is irrelevant here. It might mean that you are less likely to pass at Oxford or Cambridge due to the workload and stress (amongst other things - I don't know how much med students are expected to churn out frequent essays like other students) than at other places. Would you therefore judge someone for not applying there on the basis of it being a heavier workload? Plenty of people do just that.

Oxbridge isn't more difficult, it's just different. You're intensively taught science for the first year and then it switches to clinical emphasis. Who's to say that's more difficult? It's entirely relative to the student.

Reply 22

Ronove

Original post by MattKneale

For the Foundation programme it certainly would, since you're ranked relative to your cohort (and not the actual medical school).

I was talking about in Denmark. I thought that much was obvious. I know that your decile counts in the UK.

I never suggested that it was the way the course was laid out in terms of clinical/non-clinical divide that was why it was sometimes perceived as more difficult. I already said about workload, intensity and potentially frequent essays. Good job sweeping the idea under the carpet without considering it at all.

Reply 23

elitemodella

As loads of people have said you would be jumping the gun to apply abroad ths cycle just because you didnt get in n
this yr. The time between ur exam results and october is soooo small, just reapply and make sure ur application is stronger. You could also apply abroad at the same time. Also there are uni's here that let biomed or other science students transfer to medicine late on. (I know st georges and newcastle do this)

Reply 24

qasidb

Original post by MattKneale

What a shocking attitude to take towards medical school. Go for the easy route, potentially come out a worse doctor and hence be less competent? Surely you should strive for the best possible degree.

Also see above.

Charles is even more difficult than the average UK uni. If you don't want to come out as a "worse doctor" who is "less competent" then I'd strongly suggest you don't apply for medicine in the UK because, according to you, that's how you'll turn out since it's easier in the UK.

Reply 25

Brachioradialis

Original post by qasidb

More difficult? In what sense exactly? Please define difficulty and how it relates to every student (since it must given you think I'd personally find it harder there... why?)

Reply 26

qasidb

Original post by MattKneale

More difficult? In what sense exactly? Please define difficulty and how it relates to every student (since it must given you think I'd personally find it harder there... why?)

Mainly the stress of it all since you usually have at least 2 tests per week. You have to actually the learn the language as well (and Czech is definitely not easiest language in the world).

Reply 27

Ronove

Original post by MattKneale

More difficult? In what sense exactly? Please define difficulty and how it relates to every student (since it must given you think I'd personally find it harder there... why?)

You accept straight up that it's harder at first faculty and easier at the other place he mentioned (don't ask me to remember the Czech name, I'm not a miracle worker), yet the concept that it could be harder than in the UK is suddenly so unlikely?

Reply 28

Knugs

Original post by MattKneale

More difficult? In what sense exactly? Please define difficulty and how it relates to every student (since it must given you think I'd personally find it harder there... why?)

Something you are both forgetting is that the structure of the curriculum is almost different to all other medical schools. Even in the UK the way its taught differs between schools. Comparing medical schools doesnt work. And difficulty is very subjective. But what they all have in common is a guidelines of things they have to teach you and things you will have to know.

WHO says UK medical schools are so much better than European medical schools anyways. Only because the entry requirements are more realistic it doesnt automatically mean they are worse. Quite the opposite. More funding, More patients, Better teacher.student ratios. Less money blown into research. More exams :wink:

Reply 29

nexttime

Original post by Ronove

I don't know how much med students are expected to churn out frequent essays like other students) t.

About 3 per week in pre-clinical. You get good at just paraphrasing the textbook though - its not like you need references.

I've seen it said fairly frequently that the workload is higher/more intensive at Oxbridge

I don't know about that. Maybe a little bit because of the type of person it attracts. The competitive selection process between pre-clinical and clinical definitely does make it a lot harder for us in terms of deciles, but that's not the same as working harder obv'.

Reply 30

Sherbet

Medical education in the UK is world renowned and incredibly popular with international students and with employers from around the world (e.g. Australia). The NHS and the UK government with the GMC highly regulate the teaching, it's easier to be a student in the NHS and make a transition into a UK hospital, in my course and many others most of the final year is a transition towards becoming an FY1 in an NHS UK hospital.

Medicine abroad is a last resort. Take a gap year, in a years time with reflection on what went wrong, more experience and grades in hand you might be reading this thread and thanking yourself do giving it a second shot.

If it doesn't work out again, then try abroad. A year feels like forever now but I promise it will fly by :smile:

. Foundation year places are getting pretty tight for UK grads, there's a good chance they might not be so accepting of EU applicants in the future, they've designed their perfect course, they won't continue to take EU grads over UK grads with the way it's going possibly. Just something to be aware of.

If training abroad was as good/better than in the UK then it would not be seen as an easy way out (not in terms of academics but in terms of competition).

Reply 31

Mylinho

I wanna thank everyone for your replies, they really helped. I suppose 4 rejections put me into panic mode. I reckon subconsciously I may have convinced myself I was gonna get in somewhere so suddenly being in this situation was a bit worrying- and ofcourse family pressure to go to uni didn't help.

Now I've had time for it to sink in, I've been able to think about it logically. It seems pretty obvious that a gap year really is the most rational thing to do. I'm working to get a placement at the local hospital.

I also wanna thank Sidsingh for recommending Ovidius university. It really is an impressive medical school, and I've decided to keep it as my backup. I spoke to the university and they've said as long as I send the right paperwork next year, they'll be happy to take me, so if I'm really unlucky next year and can't get in anywhere here, atleast I'll definitely be going to medical school somewhere.

To anyone else who might stumble onto this thread in the same situation, it's scary at first. The natural instinct is to get in somewhere and be 'safe.' But after thinking about it, the sensible thing to do is work out where you went wrong (in my case ukcat) find a way to fix it, and try again. Abroad it backup.

Oh and just for the record, I didn't want to go abroad because I thought it was an easier option. I don't think anyone can deny that every year there are more than suitable medical applicants with all the desired qualities who are unable to get into medicine first time, simply because there aren't enough places. Out of those people, some will decide to choose a different career. The ones who are really committed will take a gap year or go abroad, because some countries will have places international students- so there's still a chance for us. I don't think either options are easy. It's just that a gap year is the better choice as there's still a chance I could get into a british medical school. If things don't work out, then I can go abroad so I'll still be a doctor.

Reply 32

Brachioradialis

Original post by Mylinho

All fair points -- the only real reason you need to be careful going abroad is if you ultimately want to come back and work here as a doctor. Whilst it's possible (and relatively straightforward) at the moment there's just no guarantee of that in the future given the shortage of placements for UK graduates. That's why doing a gap year and applying again here is the best option if you definitively want to work here :smile:

Otherwise, there's little issue!

Reply 33

Knugs

Original post by MattKneale

Otherwise, there's little issue!

Shortage of Foundation places? mmmmh :rolleyes:

Reply 34

Brachioradialis

Original post by Knugs

Shortage of Foundation places? mmmmh :rolleyes:

Are you doubting that fact?

Reply 35

Knugs

Original post by MattKneale

Are you doubting that fact?

if you cant support it
yes

Reply 36

Brachioradialis

Original post by Knugs

if you cant support it
yes

Google foundation programme oversubscription. You're not a baby, I'm sure you can find it yourself. The BMJ is a good place to start.

Reply 37

Knugs

Original post by MattKneale

Google foundation programme oversubscription. You're not a baby, I'm sure you can find it yourself. The BMJ is a good place to start.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Did you even read the article yourself? At first you are talking about how shortage of FY places is a commen FACT and that medical graduates are not guaranteed a place. Then you mention oversubscription.
"OVERSUB."
2011 : 184
2012 : 81
" In both years all the applicants on the reserve list were allocated a place before the programme started."

Shortage of FY places is not the same as oversubscription. The article itself says that all were allocated a place. Now if you had known foreign medical graduates do not even need to apply to FY1 but can go straight to FY2. Since a few are leaving after FY1 there are places for foreign graduates available.
Maybe you can read up how 99% of all medical graduates are employed each year.