Army rubbish
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Original post by Drewski
No, noone can. But being put under a bit of stress and being made to work is better than never having been put under stress and yet still be expected to work.
Shouting on it's own doesn't do much. But as you've expressed several times, you've no knowledge of how this part of training is actually used, so why do you keep criticising it if you don't know the whole story? Mental stress is only one part of it. The other - and far easier to replicate - element that is added to this is physical stress. Imagine being worked for 20hrs a day for a week, enduring route marches, drills, tests and various extreme tests of fitness at all hours of the day and night in all weathers. And then imagine, when at your absolute physical limit and point of total exhaustion, that your whole team is relying on you to get yourself and your kit to a certain place by a certain time, all the while you've got people shouting at you, imitation explosives going off nearby, various simulations of the battlefield going on...
I've, fortunately, never been near an actual firefight, but I know that when pushed to my limits I can still rely on myself to perform and rely on the other people around me to do the same. And that's what it comes down to.
As someone who's never been in the situation - and who hopefully never will be, I wouldn't wish that level of chaos and stress on anyone, whether simulated or real - it's something you're not quite ready or able to understand. That doesn't mean it's wrong, that doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means it's something outside of your comprehension and experience.
Yes, but you've never once explained what you think/know that to be...
Nope. They're the people who formulate it for everybody of all levels. There's actually a remarkable degree of similarity between the types of training all entrants get at the very beginning, whether RN, Army or RAF, whether Officer or basic serviceman. The transition from civilian to warfighter is a drastic one and they all use, basically, the same procedure.
Well, no, you can't "safely say" that, because you've not been on the receiving end of the other.
There's more training than that. It's never ending. Just because you might have finished Basic Recruit training or Initial Officer Training doesnt mean you never train again. Your entire career is training, practising.
A lot more stress is compound. Things get worse, they escalate, you're given more responsibilities which in turn produce more pressure and stress. You think it's all just shouting. That's your downfall in this entire thing, you don't appreciate it's part of a wider picture incorporating many many levels.
Shouting on it's own doesn't do much. But as you've expressed several times, you've no knowledge of how this part of training is actually used, so why do you keep criticising it if you don't know the whole story? Mental stress is only one part of it. The other - and far easier to replicate - element that is added to this is physical stress. Imagine being worked for 20hrs a day for a week, enduring route marches, drills, tests and various extreme tests of fitness at all hours of the day and night in all weathers. And then imagine, when at your absolute physical limit and point of total exhaustion, that your whole team is relying on you to get yourself and your kit to a certain place by a certain time, all the while you've got people shouting at you, imitation explosives going off nearby, various simulations of the battlefield going on...
I've, fortunately, never been near an actual firefight, but I know that when pushed to my limits I can still rely on myself to perform and rely on the other people around me to do the same. And that's what it comes down to.
As someone who's never been in the situation - and who hopefully never will be, I wouldn't wish that level of chaos and stress on anyone, whether simulated or real - it's something you're not quite ready or able to understand. That doesn't mean it's wrong, that doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means it's something outside of your comprehension and experience.
Yes, but you've never once explained what you think/know that to be...
Nope. They're the people who formulate it for everybody of all levels. There's actually a remarkable degree of similarity between the types of training all entrants get at the very beginning, whether RN, Army or RAF, whether Officer or basic serviceman. The transition from civilian to warfighter is a drastic one and they all use, basically, the same procedure.
Well, no, you can't "safely say" that, because you've not been on the receiving end of the other.
There's more training than that. It's never ending. Just because you might have finished Basic Recruit training or Initial Officer Training doesnt mean you never train again. Your entire career is training, practising.
A lot more stress is compound. Things get worse, they escalate, you're given more responsibilities which in turn produce more pressure and stress. You think it's all just shouting. That's your downfall in this entire thing, you don't appreciate it's part of a wider picture incorporating many many levels.
As I said in the other response that's better than what almost everyone else has said. Almost everyone else has just claimed that I'm wrong but not really explained why. At the very beginning I said I was happy for someone to tell me I'm wrong, it just seems like no one else actually could explain why my impression is wrong.
I still can't agree with the "shouting to create stress" idea. If going through all that crap, shouting wouldn't stress me out, I'd have much bigger problems. I agree with the above post that if I was shouted at after all that it would make me angry and want to do better so in that case I see the use of it.
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Original post by LewisG123
As I said in the other response that's better than what almost everyone else has said. Almost everyone else has just claimed that I'm wrong but not really explained why.
Yet you've also claimed that we're all wrong... but not explained why.
At the very beginning I said I was happy for someone to tell me I'm wrong, it just seems like no one else actually could explain why my impression is wrong.
I still can't agree with the "shouting to create stress" idea. If going through all that crap, shouting wouldn't stress me out, I'd have much bigger problems. I agree with the above post that if I was shouted at after all that it would make me angry and want to do better so in that case I see the use of it.
I still can't agree with the "shouting to create stress" idea. If going through all that crap, shouting wouldn't stress me out, I'd have much bigger problems. I agree with the above post that if I was shouted at after all that it would make me angry and want to do better so in that case I see the use of it.
It has a slightly different effect on different people. Some react like that in a "screw you I am going to do this" manner, others in a "right, now I'm angry" way. Some might fall in on themselves and find themselves unsuitable, but it's better to do that in a benign training environment that you can control than somewhere you can't. Ultimately, though, it gets the blood pumping, the adrenaline flowing and makes you function. And that's what it's all about.
The reason you can't agree with it is that you're still viewing it as a very binary thing. A occurs, so B happens. Whereas in reality it's a bit more convoluted and other factors weigh in. A happens so eventually you get Z response.
And re bold, you haven't once been happy to be told you're wrong. And even when confronted with the depth answers, from various points of view and personal opinions you still disagree with it and say it's wrong. Either be balanced with your debate or put up with people acting like you're a troll.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Drewski
It has a slightly different effect on different people. Some react like that in a "screw you I am going to do this" manner, others in a "right, now I'm angry" way. Some might fall in on themselves and find themselves unsuitable, but it's better to do that in a benign training environment that you can control than somewhere you can't. Ultimately, though, it gets the blood pumping, the adrenaline flowing and makes you function. And that's what it's all about.
The reason you can't agree with it is that you're still viewing it as a very binary thing. A occurs, so B happens. Whereas in reality it's a bit more convoluted and other factors weigh in. A happens so eventually you get Z response.
And re bold, you haven't once been happy to be told you're wrong. And even when confronted with the depth answers, from various points of view and personal opinions you still disagree with it and say it's wrong. Either be balanced with your debate or put up with people acting like you're a troll.
The reason you can't agree with it is that you're still viewing it as a very binary thing. A occurs, so B happens. Whereas in reality it's a bit more convoluted and other factors weigh in. A happens so eventually you get Z response.
And re bold, you haven't once been happy to be told you're wrong. And even when confronted with the depth answers, from various points of view and personal opinions you still disagree with it and say it's wrong. Either be balanced with your debate or put up with people acting like you're a troll.
Most of the depth answers were basically identical copies and almost all seemed to be trying to say that the stress of being shouted at is what makes you handle being shot at, not saying it's used in combination and to make you want to do better, that's why I've objected to all of those answers
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Original post by LewisG123
I notice you didn't use the "it creates stress" point everyone else seems to make, the reason you gave makes a lot more sense.
As for the stupid hats comment I don't mean the peaked caps like the ones pilots wear, I mean the berets with feathers.
As for the stupid hats comment I don't mean the peaked caps like the ones pilots wear, I mean the berets with feathers.
That's because it works differently for different people. You might not agree with the way some react to it, but that doesn't mean they're lying or they're wrong.
And the thing about the feathers, leeks, whatever-else-they-sometimes-have is a mix of tradition and superstition. Why does Bradford City play in claret and amber? Why does Newcastle Utd use black and white stripes? Why are Arsenal in red? Why did your school have a slightly different uniform to the next closest school?
It's no more silly than that. It's a way of telling units apart when they're all wearing identical uniforms. They'll have a reason specific to each regiment about why they have a particular thing, but does it really matter?
It's also worth noting that of all the regiments left [and it's only an Army thing, that] very few of them have such a tradition. After all, if they all did, they'd all look the same. Which kind defeats the purpose.
Original post by LewisG123
Most of the depth answers were basically identical copies and almost all seemed to be trying to say that the stress of being shouted at is what makes you handle being shot at, not saying it's used in combination and to make you want to do better, that's why I've objected to all of those answers
Military life generally attracts people of a similar type, similar mindset and personality type*. It's no surprise then that the vast majority of those people will react similarly to certain things, hence the mostly one type of answers.
*When I went through IOT we spent a day doing the Myers-Briggs personality tests and found that of the 35 of us doing the test at that time, we all had pretty much the same results.
Original post by CoolStoryBroo
Isn't the army for people that can't think for themselves?
I personally couldn't be in a place where people have a significant authority over me, those people get treated and shouted at like dogs
I personally couldn't be in a place where people have a significant authority over me, those people get treated and shouted at like dogs
Can't think for themselves lol? So you're saying that in a situation where they're faced with somebody who's going to blow them to bits if they don't act correctly, they don't think for themselves?
Great logic.
Original post by Drewski
That's because it works differently for different people. You might not agree with the way some react to it, but that doesn't mean they're lying or they're wrong.
And the thing about the feathers, leeks, whatever-else-they-sometimes-have is a mix of tradition and superstition. Why does Bradford City play in claret and amber? Why does Newcastle Utd use black and white stripes? Why are Arsenal in red? Why did your school have a slightly different uniform to the next closest school?
It's no more silly than that. It's a way of telling units apart when they're all wearing identical uniforms. They'll have a reason specific to each regiment about why they have a particular thing, but does it really matter?
It's also worth noting that of all the regiments left [and it's only an Army thing, that] very few of them have such a tradition. After all, if they all did, they'd all look the same. Which kind defeats the purpose.
And the thing about the feathers, leeks, whatever-else-they-sometimes-have is a mix of tradition and superstition. Why does Bradford City play in claret and amber? Why does Newcastle Utd use black and white stripes? Why are Arsenal in red? Why did your school have a slightly different uniform to the next closest school?
It's no more silly than that. It's a way of telling units apart when they're all wearing identical uniforms. They'll have a reason specific to each regiment about why they have a particular thing, but does it really matter?
It's also worth noting that of all the regiments left [and it's only an Army thing, that] very few of them have such a tradition. After all, if they all did, they'd all look the same. Which kind defeats the purpose.
A football teams colours are a bit different to wearing a feather on your head. I think, initially, I'd find it harder to take someone seriously when they have a feather beret on but I'd never claim to be the sort of person who's made for the army
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My dad served for 10 years (mostly in the Royal Engineers) during the late 70s/80s and from his accounts bullying, abuse, violence etc were endemic in the forces during that period and soldiers were encouraged not to think for themselves or question their orders etc.
Ultimately I suspect that the current army has a better balance between discipline and treating people with dignity. Also, whilst I agree with the argument that discipline is vital in order to prepare you for combat situations there is a difference between discipline/chain of command and psychological bullying by NCOs/encouraging soldiers to be mindless zombies. The reality is that soldiers need to have self-respect if they're going to stay in the forces and perform well and increasingly they need to be able to think on their feet etc - there is no advantage to encouraging a system where the guys that are actually using the kit and doing the fighting are afraid to give opinions/feedback to their commanding officers. Furthermore, officers make bad calls and blind obedience is as likely to get people killed as hesitating is.
Ultimately I suspect that the current army has a better balance between discipline and treating people with dignity. Also, whilst I agree with the argument that discipline is vital in order to prepare you for combat situations there is a difference between discipline/chain of command and psychological bullying by NCOs/encouraging soldiers to be mindless zombies. The reality is that soldiers need to have self-respect if they're going to stay in the forces and perform well and increasingly they need to be able to think on their feet etc - there is no advantage to encouraging a system where the guys that are actually using the kit and doing the fighting are afraid to give opinions/feedback to their commanding officers. Furthermore, officers make bad calls and blind obedience is as likely to get people killed as hesitating is.
Original post by LewisG123
A football teams colours are a bit different to wearing a feather on your head. I think, initially, I'd find it harder to take someone seriously when they have a feather beret on but I'd never claim to be the sort of person who's made for the army
Woah woah, noone's saying they aren't comical - they are - just that they are there for a purpose.
And they're not really that different. It's the same basic principle, telling one group apart from another.
Original post by LewisG123
Well at the time they thought that their expertise was sufficient, we can see it's not, in 1500 years people will look at military practice and see that it should have been done differently.
Please find me some evidence about this constant evolution with the help of psychologists
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Please find me some evidence about this constant evolution with the help of psychologists
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And the same can be said of anyone, doing anything, ever. Well played.
You want me to provide evidence that Army training changes over time? No. I can't be arsed. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine, I honestly can't be bothered to spare the time to try and prove to you that the Army constantly moniters and updates their training. I tell you what, ask your friends that have been in the Forces if their training differed in any way.
The hackle (the feathers you're on about OP) are a tradition that once served a purpose. The fusiliers who wear them used to have a new type of musket which was a powerful and effective weapon in its time. The troops who had these weapons wore a hackle in their headdress so the generals at the back of the battlefield could see where they were and move them easily to where they needed them. This eventually became obsolete but has been kept as a ceremonial and traditional thing that soldiers in the regiment identify with and are very protective of. Just like guardsmen have the bearskin and red tunics, paras have their maroon beret or boot necks have their green beret. Regimental identity is a big thing in the British army, it's something that helps soldiers in their unit have pride in their regiment and strive to be better than other regiments in the army.
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Original post by LewisG123
Most of the depth answers were basically identical copies and almost all seemed to be trying to say that the stress of being shouted at is what makes you handle being shot at, not saying it's used in combination and to make you want to do better, that's why I've objected to all of those answers
Let's try this again.
Being shouted at during training when you're hardly sleeping, constantly out of your comfort zone and knowing if you don't continue to work hard for no praise you won't get any time off. This prepares you better for when you're on exercise.
On exercise, you'll be shouted at, not get much sleep, dig a few trenches, work extremely hard and once again get no praise. If you cock up you'll lose free time doing show parades or restrictions. This prepares you better for pre deployment training.
This trend continues until the point where being in a warzone, being shouted at, in a trench you've just dug after not sleeping and being shot at is only slightly worse than what you've done many times before.
And here's a thought: in a warzone, your CO might have to actually raise his voice to issue an order. You wouldn't want that to be the first time you've heard him shout now would you?
Original post by LewisG123
Well at the time they thought that their expertise was sufficient, we can see it's not, in 1500 years people will look at military practice and see that it should have been done differently.
Only if in 1500 years everyone is a namby pamby bleeding heart liberal.
And how exactly should it be done differently?
Original post by LewisG123
A football teams colours are a bit different to wearing a feather on your head. I think, initially, I'd find it harder to take someone seriously when they have a feather beret on but I'd never claim to be the sort of person who's made for the army
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So are you saying that you be 'able' to take someone seriously if they had say a Para Wing or a UKSF badge?
Everyone goes through the same process no matter what, everyone gets shouted at, everyone sweats and works hard everyone is on the same team regardless.
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Original post by LewisG123
Yes and I over and over again have said how can being shouted at by someone you know is going to do no harm to you prepare you for having bullets and grenades fired at you? It's one thing to keep a cool head when someone is shouting, I can do that. I don't imagine I'd keep a cool head if I was being shot at.
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Yes and I over and over again have said how can being shouted at by someone you know is going to do no harm to you prepare you for having bullets and grenades fired at you? It's one thing to keep a cool head when someone is shouting, I can do that. I don't imagine I'd keep a cool head if I was being shot at.
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Well don't join the army then and we won't have to worry about our freedom and lives in the hands of someone who self confesses to lack of ability. If you have zero intention of joining up then why start a debate on something that's nothing to do with you or your experience in the first place.. ? I don't walk into a garage and ask a mechanic why he puts up with a job that involves manual labour and is smelly/dirty work, as it's none of my business and is his/her career choice.
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Original post by teasin_tina
Well don't join the army then and we won't have to worry about our freedom and lives in the hands of someone who self confesses to lack of ability. If you have zero intention of joining up then why start a debate on something that's nothing to do with you or your experience in the first place.. ? I don't walk into a garage and ask a mechanic why he puts up with a job that involves manual labour and is smelly/dirty work, as it's none of my business and is his/her career choice.
Seems he's had enough.
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Seems he's had enough.
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Oh dear I appear to have come to this debate too late and all the best replies have gone and been reiterated several times. I was going to say something about our pink and fluffy society, but no that can be left for another day
In the meantime how about a bit of humour?
In the meantime how about a bit of humour?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Ikaruss
Oh dear I appear to have come to this debate too late and all the best replies have gone and been reiterated several times. I was going to say something about our pink and fluffy society, but no that can be left for another day
In the meantime how about a bit of humour?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780
In the meantime how about a bit of humour?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780
Which of course must be accompanied by...
Original post by Drewski
You've been watching too much Bad Lad's Army. As a caricature of what goes on, fine, have it, but as a day to day guide on military life? About as misguided as you can get.
I used to love watching that as a kid on ITV
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