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Is a J.D. useless for non-Americans?

Hey everyone, I was hoping I could get some perspectives on my situation. I'm Canadian (also a dual UK citizen) and I recently firmed a place at LSE for BSc International Relations. My original intent was to pursue an MSc in IR after the BSc. However, I've recently started to consider law school in the US as an alternative path after getting my BSc, which I know is required to get into a J.D. program. After doing some research, I'm left with these questions,

1. Is it even possible for a non-US citizen to be employed in the US after successfully achieving a J.D. at a US law school and passing a state bar?

2. If not, does a US J.D. have any use outside of the US at all?

3. Is it fair to say that the expenses involved would only be worth it if I was accepted into a T14 school? My hope is that if I did well at LSE I could have a shot at a T14.

I should add that I do not want to go down the LLM/LLB path because my understanding is that most states don't accept lawyers educated at non-ABA approved schools (in other words, any law school not in the United States).

Thank you for any perspectives!
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by jco19
Hey everyone, I was hoping I could get some perspectives on my situation. I'm Canadian (also a dual UK citizen) and I recently firmed a place at LSE for BSc International Relations. My original intent was to pursue an MSc in IR after the BSc. However, I've recently started to consider law school in the US as an alternative path after getting my BSc, which I know is required to get into a J.D. program. After doing some research, I'm left with these questions,

1. Is it even possible for a non-US citizen to be employed in the US after successfully achieving a J.D. at a US law school and passing a state bar?


Yes and thousands are. Provided you qualify for your green card one way or another, then only certain US government legal jobs would be barred to non-Americans.


2. If not, does a US J.D. have any use outside of the US at all?


The are US attorneys practising in many other jurisdictions.



3. Is it fair to say that the expenses involved would only be worth it if I was accepted into a T14 school? My hope is that if I did well at LSE I could have a shot at a T14.


America has a lot of lawyers. America has a lot of young lawyers. The vast majority of them do not go anywhere near the T14. If you go to the University of North Dakota you have a 1 in 2 chance of getting a job requiring a law degree

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304458604577486623469958142.html#project%3DLSCHOOL20120625%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

I should add that I do not want to go down the LLM/LLB path because my understanding is that most states don't accept lawyers educated at non-ABA approved schools (in other words, any law school not in the United States).


You are running three things together (1) attending a non-approved law school (2) doing an LLM rather than a JD and (3) getting employment as a lawyer rather than admission to the bar.

As to (1), attending a non-accredited US law school is a waste of time. (2) (some) US LLMs are designed as a preparation to convert foreign law graduates into American attorneys. Not all states accept them but many do and of course the two largest jurisdictions New York and California require nothing other than a common law law degree. (3) the suggestion is that attorneys without a JD struggle to obtain positions but it is unclear to what extent that suggestion is based on information from anywhere wider than New York city.
You also need to think carefully about visa issues - you need to work out how you are going to get a green card.
Reply 3
Original post by nulli tertius
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Thank you for your input, I appreciate it! The WSJ article was useful too.

In regards to employment, I guess my main concern is that most non-citizens or non Green Card holders might struggle to find a company willing to sponsor them. My understanding is that a company has to prove to the Dept. of Labor that there is no qualified US citizen available to fill the position, but with so many qualified law graduates in the US, I would think that would be impossible for them to prove. Do you think that would be a fair assessment? Which would lead me to believe that it might be better for me to just get a JD in Canada, although a lot of the JD programs in Canada are new so I'm not sure how useful or trusted they are beyond Canada.
Reply 4
Original post by jco19
Thank you for your input, I appreciate it! The WSJ article was useful too.

In regards to employment, I guess my main concern is that most non-citizens or non Green Card holders might struggle to find a company willing to sponsor them. My understanding is that a company has to prove to the Dept. of Labor that there is no qualified US citizen available to fill the position, but with so many qualified law graduates in the US, I would think that would be impossible for them to prove. Do you think that would be a fair assessment? Which would lead me to believe that it might be better for me to just get a JD in Canada, although a lot of the JD programs in Canada are new so I'm not sure how useful or trusted they are beyond Canada.


JDs in Canada are not 'new'. They rebranded from calling themselves LLBs because it was confusing Americans who thought the Canadian LLB was the same as the UK LLB.(http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/A-rose-by-any-other-name.html; http://legalmarketing.ca/canadian-law-degrees-ll-b-vs-j-d/)

Also, as a Canadian, your visa situation is slightly different. With NAFTA you can qualify for a TN visa which isn't the same as a Green card, and cannot be converted to one, but will allow you to practice for 3 years (and don't forget that by attending a US institution you are also granted leave to stay and gain employment for 1 year). Further, it is renewable every 3 years, in theory indefinitely, as long as you're not abusing it, or trying to get a Green card at the same time.

Lastly, there are a lot of Canadian lawyers working in White Shoe firms in NYC, so it may be useful for you to search their bio pages on firm websites and just get a feel for the path they took. I think you'll be surprised to find a fair few Canadian law degrees.
Reply 5
Original post by KirstyK
JDs in Canada are not 'new'. They rebranded from calling themselves LLBs because it was confusing Americans who thought the Canadian LLB was the same as the UK LLB.(http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/A-rose-by-any-other-name.html; http://legalmarketing.ca/canadian-law-degrees-ll-b-vs-j-d/)

Also, as a Canadian, your visa situation is slightly different. With NAFTA you can qualify for a TN visa which isn't the same as a Green card, and cannot be converted to one, but will allow you to practice for 3 years (and don't forget that by attending a US institution you are also granted leave to stay and gain employment for 1 year). Further, it is renewable every 3 years, in theory indefinitely, as long as you're not abusing it, or trying to get a Green card at the same time.

Lastly, there are a lot of Canadian lawyers working in White Shoe firms in NYC, so it may be useful for you to search their bio pages on firm websites and just get a feel for the path they took. I think you'll be surprised to find a fair few Canadian law degrees.


Thanks for the information.

If you were in my situation, would you give up the LSE offer and just go to a school here in Canada? Because my understanding is that where one studies for their bachelor's is largely irrelevant to getting into a good law school, just that they maintain a high GPA and get a good LSAT score. I feel like I'm in limbo and don't know what to do because I still have an offer from U of T that I can accept by June, but I've been obsessed with LSE's prestige for a long time. But it seems that if I want to go to law school, paying for that LSE prestige won't get me much further than just going to U of T. I probably should have done better career planning. :cry:
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 6
You have an offer from U of T? You mean U of T law? I think that's definitely a better option than LSE if you want to practice in Canada or the U.S..

I don't think U.S. work visa is a problem. Many friends who go to non-top 14 law eventually get a job in America and be sponsored H1-Bs. It isn't that difficult.
Reply 7
Original post by jco19


1. Is it even possible for a non-US citizen to be employed in the US after successfully achieving a J.D. at a US law school and passing a state bar?


Yes. It's actually not that difficult either if a firm employs you. For Canadians/Brits, the firm's decision to pick you will usually clear any visa hurdles.


2. If not, does a US J.D. have any use outside of the US at all?

Not really. It might be transferable in Canada, and it's a pretty rigorous qualification, but beyond that a UK LLB is actually more useful. A UK LLB lets you practice in Singapore and Hong Kong, India if you went to certain universities, and I believe Australia and NZ with a short conversion.

US Lawyers can side-qualify into all those jurisdictions, but they have to have both a State Bar qualification, and a few years practice.


3. Is it fair to say that the expenses involved would only be worth it if I was accepted into a T14 school? My hope is that if I did well at LSE I could have a shot at a T14.


I wouldn't even bother if you don't get accepted into a T14. The job market in the US is absolutely atrocious for anyone outside of Harvard Yale and Stanford, and given the absolutely huge amount of debt you'll take on (plus 3 years of your life) I'd be very conservative.


I should add that I do not want to go down the LLM/LLB path because my understanding is that most states don't accept lawyers educated at non-ABA approved schools (in other words, any law school not in the United States).


I did an undergraduate law degree in the UK. If you do one you can do the NY State Bar Exam without any further education in the US (you will need to self teach yourself US law).

That said, US law firms will not hire you as a US associate without a JD. They could, but they simply won't. An LLB is a good start if you get hired by a US firm in the UK, and then decide then decide to move to the firm's NY / DC offices and practice US law. But it won't get you a starting job in the US.

Feel free to PM if you have any further questions.

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