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FP2 help

I'm stuck on question number 7. http://www.ocr.org.uk/Images/136137-question-paper-unit-4726-further-pure-mathematics-2.pdf

I've done part 1 a=2 b=n c=1 d=n-1

I'm not really too sure how to do part 2. I've integrated y=1/x using the limits from 1 to n, to get ln(n), but then I'm not too sure what to do.
Reply 1
Original post by Music99
I'm stuck on question number 7. http://www.ocr.org.uk/Images/136137-question-paper-unit-4726-further-pure-mathematics-2.pdf

I've done part 1 a=2 b=n c=1 d=n-1

I'm not really too sure how to do part 2. I've integrated y=1/x using the limits from 1 to n, to get ln(n), but then I'm not too sure what to do.

Substituting those values in we have

12+13+...+1n<lnn<1+12+...+1n1\displaystyle \frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n}<\ln n < 1+ \frac{1}{2}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}


I'll start by finding the upper bound:

f(n)=1+12+13+...+1nlnn\displaystyle f(n)=1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n


We have a lower bound for lnn\ln n so replacing lnn\ln n with that lower bound will make f(n)f(n) bigger:

f(n)=1+12+13+...+1nlnn<1+12+13+...+1n(12+13+...+1n)\displaystyle f(n)=1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n < 1+\frac{1}{2}+ \frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n} - \left(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}\right)

Can you use this to find the upper bound? Then follow a similar procedure to find the lower bound.
Reply 2
Original post by notnek
Substituting those values in we have

12+13+...+1n<lnn<1+12+...+1n1\displaystyle \frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n}<\ln n < 1+ \frac{1}{2}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}


I'll start by finding the upper bound:

f(n)=1+12+13+...+1nlnn\displaystyle f(n)=1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n


We have a lower bound for lnn\ln n so replacing lnn\ln n with that lower bound will make f(n)f(n) bigger:

f(n)=1+12+13+...+1nlnn<1+12+13+...+1n(12+13+...+1n)\displaystyle f(n)=1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n < 1+\frac{1}{2}+ \frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n} - \left(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}\right)

Can you use this to find the upper bound? Then follow a similar procedure to find the lower bound.


So everything apart from the 1 on the RHS cancels so we get f(n)<1 so the upper bound is 1? Also if that is correct can you explain why this is the upperbound I would have thought it is the lower bound... (Sorry if I'm being stupid).
Reply 3
Original post by Music99
So everything apart from the 1 on the RHS cancels so we get f(n)<1 so the upper bound is 1? Also if that is correct can you explain why this is the upperbound I would have thought it is the lower bound... (Sorry if I'm being stupid).


you can subtract ln n from both sides of the first statement notnek gave you and then rearrange slightly to give you something that looks like

f(n) - 1 < 0 < f(n) - something else

This form gives you the upper and lower bounds for f(n)
Reply 4
Original post by Music99
So everything apart from the 1 on the RHS cancels so we get f(n)<1 so the upper bound is 1? Also if that is correct can you explain why this is the upperbound I would have thought it is the lower bound... (Sorry if I'm being stupid).

1 is correct.

If you're looking to make something as large as possible and subtracting something, you want the number you're subtracting to be as small as possible.

e.g.

2<3<4

5-4 < 5-3 < 5-2
Reply 5
Original post by notnek
1 is correct.

If you're looking to make something as large as possible and subtracting something, you want the number you're subtracting to be as small as possible.

e.g.

2<3<4

5-4 < 5-3 < 5-2

Ah brilliant thank you! I need to practice these! :P
Reply 6
Original post by notnek
1 is correct.

If you're looking to make something as large as possible and subtracting something, you want the number you're subtracting to be as small as possible.

e.g.

2<3<4

5-4 < 5-3 < 5-2


So i reattempted the question and I've confused myself.

the integral comes out as ln(n) so we can rewrite the inequalities as

12+13+...+1n<ln(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}<ln(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. So then we can rearrnage to get

12+13+...+1nln(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-ln(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. Which is the same as

f(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 f(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. From here I get stuck.
Reply 7
Original post by Music99
So i reattempted the question and I've confused myself.

the integral comes out as ln(n) so we can rewrite the inequalities as

12+13+...+1n<ln(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}<ln(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. So then we can rearrnage to get

12+13+...+1nln(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-ln(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. Which is the same as

f(n)<1+12+13+...+1n1 f(n)<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1}. From here I get stuck.

If you're going to subtract lnn\ln n from one side of the inequality, you need to subtract it from all other sides as well:

12+13+...+1nlnn<lnnlnn<1+12+13+...+1n1lnn\displaystyle \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n<\ln n-\ln n<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1} - \ln n

Try continuing from here.
Reply 8
Original post by notnek
If you're going to subtract lnn\ln n from one side of the inequality, you need to subtract it from all other sides as well:

12+13+...+1nlnn<lnnlnn<1+12+13+...+1n1lnn\displaystyle \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n}-\ln n<\ln n-\ln n<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{n-1} - \ln n

Try continuing from here.


So we get f(n)<0<f(n1)f(n)<0<f(n-1)? I'm not too sure on the RHS.
Reply 9
Original post by Music99
So we get f(n)<0<f(n1)f(n)<0<f(n-1)? I'm not too sure on the RHS.

The LHS is not f(n), it's missing a 1. And the RHS is missing a 1/n term from f(n). So

12+13+...+1nln<lnnlnn<1+12+13+...+1n1lnn\displaystyle \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{ n}-\ln <\ln n-\ln n<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n-1} - \ln n

    f(n)1<0<f(n)1n\displaystyle \implies f(n)-1<0<f(n)-\frac{1}{n}


I assume because you are using this method, you weren't comfortable with the method I gave?
Reply 10
Original post by notnek
The LHS is not f(n), it's missing a 1. And the RHS is missing a 1/n term from f(n). So

12+13+...+1nln<lnnlnn<1+12+13+...+1n1lnn\displaystyle \frac {1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+\frac{1}{ n}-\ln <\ln n-\ln n<1+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{3}+...+ \frac{1}{n-1} - \ln n

    f(n)1<0<f(n)1n\displaystyle \implies f(n)-1<0<f(n)-\frac{1}{n}


I assume because you are using this method, you weren't comfortable with the method I gave?


I initially thought I was, but when i tried it I got really confused, I'll look over it again though.
Reply 11
Original post by Music99
I initially thought I was, but when i tried it I got really confused, I'll look over it again though.


I got the same as notnek when I did it, which gives the bounds 1/n < f(n) < 1, although I actually thought I was doing the same as him but in 1 stage rather than 2, as opposed to giving you a completely different method :smile:
Reply 12
Original post by davros
I got the same as notnek when I did it, which gives the bounds 1/n < f(n) < 1, although I actually thought I was doing the same as him but in 1 stage rather than 2, as opposed to giving you a completely different method :smile:


Yeah I looked at the wrong bit of my working on paper, so didn't see the 1 was meant to be there for f(n) :P. I'll just practice a few and it will be fine :smile:.

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