Why are so many people left-wing?
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Original post by Kaiser MacCleg
As opposed to the leftist toilet of Norway. Gotcha.
High taxes and high labour productivity levels allow for it though.
Original post by chrisawhitmore
In other words, it's brilliant except for the slight issue that every attempt at it turns into a murderous dictatorship.
Venezula, UK from 50-79?
Original post by Blueray2
Many people are left wing as it seems much nicer than a harsh ideology of the right.
Many people are left wing as it seems much nicer than a harsh ideology of the right.
It seems nice to naive people who get hooked by left wing buzzwords such as 'fairness' but fail to acknowledge history and economics.
Medicine sometimes tastes bad. It's still best to swallow it.
I'm not left or right wing. I would consider myself to have pretty much centrist politics.
When people try leftist politics such as Socialism and Communism, what happened in the USSR is what you get.
They tried it, and failed, and do you know why? Because humans like owning stuff. They like working to improve themselves, not for the good of society, but for the good of themselves and their families. Combine this and Communism and you end up with an elite walking on top of the workers, all of whom will be poor. Parasites, in other words.
Once parasites get too greedy, they host dies, and Communism fails. When you hear leftists talking about how Communism hasn't been tried the right way, they mean no one has figured out how to keep the host alive while the parasites feed.
Socialists view successful people's achievements with jealousy, and as something that has cost other citizens' their prosperity. But when you look around at high achievers in your own circles, how many times is that truly the case?
In my experience, these people have usually worked very hard, investing years of their lives, and often, jeopardised their immediate financial security for years on end, as they’ve gradually built a career, or whatever they’ve focused their efforts on.
Entrepreneurs aren’t convenient to a system where no one is supposed to dream bigger or have a better life than anyone else. Nor is anyone else who is more ambitious than average, works harder or just happens to be luckier.
That's the thing, Socialism and Communism don't work to improve people, it works to keep them all the same. So you are left with the lowest common denominator. It doesn't work, primarily because it's beneficiaries don't. What Socialist proponents fail to realise is you always end up spending other people's money to pay for it.
When people try leftist politics such as Socialism and Communism, what happened in the USSR is what you get.
They tried it, and failed, and do you know why? Because humans like owning stuff. They like working to improve themselves, not for the good of society, but for the good of themselves and their families. Combine this and Communism and you end up with an elite walking on top of the workers, all of whom will be poor. Parasites, in other words.
Once parasites get too greedy, they host dies, and Communism fails. When you hear leftists talking about how Communism hasn't been tried the right way, they mean no one has figured out how to keep the host alive while the parasites feed.
Socialists view successful people's achievements with jealousy, and as something that has cost other citizens' their prosperity. But when you look around at high achievers in your own circles, how many times is that truly the case?
In my experience, these people have usually worked very hard, investing years of their lives, and often, jeopardised their immediate financial security for years on end, as they’ve gradually built a career, or whatever they’ve focused their efforts on.
Entrepreneurs aren’t convenient to a system where no one is supposed to dream bigger or have a better life than anyone else. Nor is anyone else who is more ambitious than average, works harder or just happens to be luckier.
That's the thing, Socialism and Communism don't work to improve people, it works to keep them all the same. So you are left with the lowest common denominator. It doesn't work, primarily because it's beneficiaries don't. What Socialist proponents fail to realise is you always end up spending other people's money to pay for it.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Dapperatchik
You might think benefits spending should be cut. Certainly I do. But that Muslim down the road with ten kids is not the way you're going to cut spending because that's not where most of the spending goes. Over half of all welfare spending goes on the elderly. And benefits as a share of national income *fell* under the Labour government. The chart, below, uses DWP and ONS data.
The elderly person paid their taxes and have lived in the country for their whole life. The Muslim (Why Muslim?) man you mention, angers the public as he presumably hasn't had a whole line of family members who've paid into the British tax system.
Original post by Harrow.7
Venezula, UK from 50-79?
Well, the UK ran out of money and had to have it's economic policy taken away from the leftists, and Venezuela is one of the most corrupt nations in the world, while Chavez did some rather dodgy things, for example, expelling the members of the organisation 'Human rights watch' from the country after they released a report which criticized his actions in eroding the independence of the judiciary, suppressing freedom of speech. Venezuela has also refused entry to observers from the Organisation of American States after they expressed numerous concerns as to the abuse of human rights.
Original post by Alex-Torres
The elderly person paid their taxes and have lived in the country for their whole life. The Muslim (Why Muslim?) man you mention, angers the public as he presumably hasn't had a whole line of family members who've paid into the British tax system.
1) My point was simply that a tiny fraction of the welfare budget goes on immigrants, much less immigrants with large numbers of kids. If you think welfare spending is out of control, what you really mean is that pension spending is out of control. That's the bit that's rising fastest - and it's the bit that takes up the majority of the welfare budget.
2) Given the structure of the state pension, it's very unlikely that the British pensioner paid as much into the system as he's going to get out.
3) Your typical immigrant, on the other hand, is almost certainly a net contributor to the tax system. The state didn't have to pay for his education, and he's dramatically less likely to use the welfare system than an otherwise similar native. And he, of course, pays taxes.
4) I fail to see the relevance of how much one's parents have paid in tax.
Original post by Kaiser MacCleg
See last post.
Norway benefits from a good deal of natural resource wealth, which makes up over half its exports, and provides the funding for it's more generous government spending. The rest of its economy is free market. This isn't so much a vindication of socialism as demonstration that with enough resources and a small enough population it is possible to be very generous. Until, of course, they run out of oil.
Original post by MatureStudent36
High taxes and high labour productivity levels allow for it though.
Not to mention oil. Lots of oil revenue gets pumped into the norwegian government.
Original post by a729
I mean Great in the emotional/patriotic way
Which is odd, because all it actually means is that we're bigger than Brittany.
Original post by chrisawhitmore
Which is odd, because all it actually means is that we're bigger than Brittany.
But it is also used in a patriotic way to describe the country as great,even if that was not it's original intention. Thus his statement.
Original post by Barksy
That is ridiculous.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
6) How is stifling free speech fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair?
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair?
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair?
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
6) How is stifling free speech fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair?
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair?
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair?
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
They're things that are happening now, here. And we're in a capitalist society. Even Labour these days are slightly right wing, just with a few socialist ideas.
Original post by Barksy
That is ridiculous.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
6) How is stifling free speech fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair?
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair?
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair?
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
6) How is stifling free speech fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair?
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair?
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair?
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
Exactly
Original post by Dapperatchik
1) My point was simply that a tiny fraction of the welfare budget goes on immigrants, much less immigrants with large numbers of kids. If you think welfare spending is out of control, what you really mean is that pension spending is out of control. That's the bit that's rising fastest - and it's the bit that takes up the majority of the welfare budget.
2) Given the structure of the state pension, it's very unlikely that the British pensioner paid as much into the system as he's going to get out.
3) Your typical immigrant, on the other hand, is almost certainly a net contributor to the tax system. The state didn't have to pay for his education, and he's dramatically less likely to use the welfare system than an otherwise similar native. And he, of course, pays taxes.
4) I fail to see the relevance of how much one's parents have paid in tax.
2) Given the structure of the state pension, it's very unlikely that the British pensioner paid as much into the system as he's going to get out.
3) Your typical immigrant, on the other hand, is almost certainly a net contributor to the tax system. The state didn't have to pay for his education, and he's dramatically less likely to use the welfare system than an otherwise similar native. And he, of course, pays taxes.
4) I fail to see the relevance of how much one's parents have paid in tax.
You pose some good points. But don't you think it's cruel to throw the elderly out on the streets? Already pensioners are quite poor, well, at least my grandparents are. If they had any reduction in their pensions, they wouldn't be able to afford to live.
Original post by Alex-Torres
You pose some good points. But don't you think it's cruel to throw the elderly out on the streets? Already pensioners are quite poor, well, at least my grandparents are. If they had any reduction in their pensions, they wouldn't be able to afford to live.
No-one's suggesting reducing the state pension - but the triple lock, which guarantees that real-terms spending per pensioner will rise rapidly over the years to come, is pretty barmy. And while we should guarantee some minimum living standard to all pensioners, the truth is that old age isn't some unforeseeable disaster that strikes an unlucky few that we need expansive social insurance for.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Thriftworks
Money simply makes it easier to trade. Trade allows us to distribute limited resources when we have infinite wants. So no we don't need money, but it keeps us organised , anything could be currency of course so your comments " i can give you paper " are irrational, as it is about what the paper represents in our minds as opposed to it's functionality for direct consumption.
May I also add that throughout history the most prosperous nations have been those who have championed trade, the last 100 years as demonstrated by the rise of America the free market has been instrumental, government handouts which you praise can get in the way of supply side reforms preventing the expansion of aggregate supply and economic growth and prosperity within an economy ( e.g the UK)
May I also add that throughout history the most prosperous nations have been those who have championed trade, the last 100 years as demonstrated by the rise of America the free market has been instrumental, government handouts which you praise can get in the way of supply side reforms preventing the expansion of aggregate supply and economic growth and prosperity within an economy ( e.g the UK)
ah but in essence, the 'paper' is a representation that somewhere down the line, you will recieve my produce (in loose terms). And yes, trade. Tea for gems, spices for herbs, I'm saying thatmoney is a middle man between these trades, it means that i can give you apples and get strawberrys LATER, but my ideal is that if I give you apples now, i should know that I can get strawberrys later without a piece of paper as a garantee.
as for booming economies... we are in a ressesion now because of the greed which is bread in such systems
What I am saying could not happen over night, but hopefully can happen in time. And larger groups could still grow, they would be known for better produce. my thought is that money in fact stands in the way of free trading, making it more about getting more of that 'representation', than the actual products
Many people are drawn to the left, even in the absence of any formal understanding of political philosophy, because it chimes with their sense that human society should be equitably organised. What constitutes an 'equitable' arrangement is, of course, open to debate, but with that idea in mind the 'left' constitutes the most obvious political arena to identify with.
We've also got Mr Spock on out side, which is cool.
We've also got Mr Spock on out side, which is cool.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Alex-Torres
The elderly person paid their taxes and have lived in the country for their whole life. The Muslim (Why Muslim?) man you mention, angers the public as he presumably hasn't had a whole line of family members who've paid into the British tax system.
Actually, if the Muslim in question (or his family) is from somewhere like India, Pakistan or Bangladesh then yes he probably has.
Original post by Kaiser MacCleg
And what do you think most people are in this country? Higher rate tax payers?
You'd rather be poor in the UK than poor in North Korea!
Compare GDP per capita!
Original post by Barksy
That is ridiculous.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair? How is making everyone poor apart from the rich elite fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair? Why should people who work bloody hard for a low wage get less pay and respect than most high earners? how is that fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
How is fair that people are denied employement because of what uni they went to? Who decided people from Oxbridge are better then everyone else?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair? How is fair to celebrate your own culture when denying others the right to celebrate theirs fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
Same as 4. I' m sure others can fill this in
6) How is stifling free speech fair? It's only free speech if the right wing media support you. If they don't you're a crackpot. How is that fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair? How is this not fair??
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair? Never heard of something called capitalism? How is fair that I'm viewed as a consumer and not as a person?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair? Yea, you would never see right wing governments support dodgy countries with dodgy human rights records. Most certainly not America...
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair? We would all loved to see these fail, but right-wing governments decided to bail them out. They would never have been in a position to fail if not for right wing policies....
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
1) How is making everyone poor apart from the omnipresent government fair? How is making everyone poor apart from the rich elite fair?
2) How is taking money from those who worked for it and giving it to people who didn't fair? Why should people who work bloody hard for a low wage get less pay and respect than most high earners? how is that fair?
3) How is equality, given the differences in people's abilities and skills, fair?
How is fair that people are denied employement because of what uni they went to? Who decided people from Oxbridge are better then everyone else?
4) How is denying your own country has a culture, while vehemently defending others, fair? How is fair to celebrate your own culture when denying others the right to celebrate theirs fair?
5) How is crusading against Christianity, but defending other religions, fair?
Same as 4. I' m sure others can fill this in
6) How is stifling free speech fair? It's only free speech if the right wing media support you. If they don't you're a crackpot. How is that fair?
7) How is positive discrimination fair? How is this not fair??
8) How is controlling everyone's life fair? Never heard of something called capitalism? How is fair that I'm viewed as a consumer and not as a person?
9) How is constantly calling your own country an oppressor, while supporting the likes of Castro, fair? Yea, you would never see right wing governments support dodgy countries with dodgy human rights records. Most certainly not America...
10) How is bailing out failed companies, with tax-payer money, fair? We would all loved to see these fail, but right-wing governments decided to bail them out. They would never have been in a position to fail if not for right wing policies....
These are all examples of the left's undeniable hypocrisy. I wish the left would just shut up and leave people the **** alone to live their lives.
Personnaly, I find the right to be more hypocritical. I think I'd rather the government interferred in my life, rather then untold random companies. Each to their own.
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