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Reply 40
Original post by xoxAngel_Kxox
What would individuals do if they couldn't afford to buy, and nobody had a property to rent out to help them? Not everybody can afford a mortgage, that's just a fact, so why not make the most of a service that you can offer to somebody who would be grateful for it? I rented for ages and was actually pleased that there was someone with money who had the funds to buy a property for me to live in- the fact that I was giving him money every month didn't bother me, to be honest. Because without him, I would have had to move in with my parents years ago.
But say you paid £10000 in rent, and your landlord just passed that onto the bank, why shouldn't you get a stake in the property?

Also, the "don't take more than you need" thing. Do you NEED a computer? Do you NEED to pay for nice clothes? Not really, yet you do it, and I'm sure if you had the chance to invest money with a guaranteed return you would do so.

I am yet to meet somebody with the money to BTL who will not do so on "moral" grounds.


Lying is immoral but everyone does it, that doesn't mean it isn't something that should be frowned upon. With housing, the situation is worse than a simple investment though, since people need a place to live. Imagine if someone could buy a river, then made people pay them for the water, would you be grateful for that just because you yourself couldn't afford to buy the whole river?
Original post by Hopple
But say you paid £10000 in rent, and your landlord just passed that onto the bank, why shouldn't you get a stake in the property?

Lying is immoral but everyone does it, that doesn't mean it isn't something that should be frowned upon. With housing, the situation is worse than a simple investment though, since people need a place to live. Imagine if someone could buy a river, then made people pay them for the water, would you be grateful for that just because you yourself couldn't afford to buy the whole river?


Because it wouldn't be my property. I wouldn't have been the one to save for a deposit, I wouldn't have been the one to sort out letting agreements, the property before it is let, finding potential tenants, possibly paying a letting agency fees..

I also wouldn't be responsible for any repairs that need doing. Having a landlord gives you a certain amount of security incase anything goes wrong. If the boiler breaks in your home you could be out of pocket by hundreds. If it happens in a rented property, ring your landlord, job done.

The water comparison isn't really the same thing at all, seeing as that isn't how the system works, and we have to pay for water anyway without owning any rivers etc. I don't own any expanse of water, therefore pay the company who deals with the water to receive it and yes, I am grateful. I'm not sure where you were going with that one, because what you suggested I wouldn't be happy with is basically what happens..
Reply 42
It is when the landlords evil :angry: .... but apart from that don't know if it can be called immoral.
Reply 43
Original post by lyrical_lie
My uncle is really big into this as it's his retirement fund kinda thing. But I don't feel it's immoral I've helped him out with repairs and such going and checking properties etc. He pays someone when he's out of the country to clean, another person to do repairs etc. So giving people jobs, these are holiday lets however.

But the ones he has in other areas are very suburban that people would definitely not be able to afford otherwise, usually renting to people who don't have jobs (which he is a bit wary of) and has to ensure he is paid from the renter's benefits. It doesn't come directly to him. But these people wouldn't have a house otherwise as people have said the government aren't going to build a lot more anytime soon.

Also when I'm older I'll probably rent for a good while I don't want to be tied down for any length of time and owning my own house isn't really an aspiration for me.


If he hadn't bought those properties, and other landlords hadn't either, then the house prices would be much lower. You can't claim he's doing them a favour when he's actually part of the cause of the problem.
Reply 44
Original post by xoxAngel_Kxox
Because it wouldn't be my property. I wouldn't have been the one to save for a deposit, I wouldn't have been the one to sort out letting agreements, the property before it is let, finding potential tenants, possibly paying a letting agency fees..

I also wouldn't be responsible for any repairs that need doing. Having a landlord gives you a certain amount of security incase anything goes wrong. If the boiler breaks in your home you could be out of pocket by hundreds. If it happens in a rented property, ring your landlord, job done.
The landlord pays X to own the home, of which Y has come from you. Why do you not own X/Y of the home? Or any of it? Is it because you were so desperate for a place to live that you'd settle for an obviously unfair agreement?

The water comparison isn't really the same thing at all, seeing as that isn't how the system works, and we have to pay for water anyway without owning any rivers etc. I don't own any expanse of water, therefore pay the company who deals with the water to receive it and yes, I am grateful. I'm not sure where you were going with that one, because what you suggested I wouldn't be happy with is basically what happens..


Water's cheap, and their are environmental concerns about it, so we accept paying for it. Imagine if you were spending 20+% of your income on water - it's just as, if not more, important than a roof over your head.
Reply 45
Original post by FranticMind


The real *******s are the estate agents. They make tons of money just for talking bull**** and filling in forms. They will drop you like a leper when you've signed the contract!


This. I despise estate agents - One actually wanted £50 off me just to view a property. Then they would have wanted application fees and so on, presumably so they can advertise lower fees to landlords - the people with real money.

Also, a close friend of mine was royally screwed by an estate agent, and she ended up suing them.

I would have pos-repped, but I've used my allowance!
Reply 46
Not if it's dressed up as something good. Some people here think outbidding a homeless person then renting the house to them is doing good! Of course, that's not what directly happens, but indirectly and overall it is.

im not sure if the analogy is right...
personally, using the river topic, id say that its like a person paid for the means to make the water from a continually polluted river, safer to drink and is charging people who want to drink from it... without that person, you may not have the money to do the same yourself hence the river is useless to you.

How about charging you 20+% of your income for the water?
Reply 47
It'd be easier if there weren't landlords driving up the prices.


charge me a fraction of my income (something i can pay immediately) to quench my thirst right now (where the person is responsible for it being safe to drink) or charge 200% of my income (which i cant pay as easily) for unlimited drinking and take the responsibility into my own hands?

False dichotomy.
Reply 48
Maybe they wouldn't but I think they could. Would the mortgage on a property not competed for by landlords be that much higher (if at all) than the rent on a property bought in an environment where landlords and prospective homeowners are competing? Higher mortgages are passed on to the tenants in the form of higher rent.


elaborate?

It needn't be one or the other. For example, tenants getting a stake in the property depending on how much rent they pay and how much mortgage the landlord is paying. In any other investment, those who stump up the cash take a percentage of the overall investment, just in this case the people stumping up cash are poorer and homeless so are desperate.
Original post by Hopple
think outbidding a homeless person then renting the house to them


Homeless people don't 'bid' for houses. They either go for state support, try to rent bedsits.

Homeless people generally have very little money. Even if house prices were £10k a home they WOULDN'T HAVE ONE.

They don't give a damn, most of them have much more significant troubles than housing.

HOMELESSNESS IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITS THE RESULT OF A PROBLEM.

Geez why does nobody get that...



Lack of jobs, mental instability, drug addictions, crime.
Reply 50
Original post by FranticMind
Homeless people don't 'bid' for houses. They either go for state support, try to rent bedsits.

Homeless people generally have very little money. Even if house prices were £10k a home they WOULDN'T HAVE ONE.

They don't give a damn, most of them have much more significant troubles than housing.

HOMELESSNESS IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITS THE RESULT OF A PROBLEM.

Geez why does nobody get that...



Lack of jobs, mental instability, drug addictions, crime.


WHAT?

How the @@@@ can you say that.

Did you not hear about the report recently that alot of people are one pay cheque from being homeless?

What makes you think you can make that judgement?

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Reply 51
Original post by rockrunride
What's wrong with being a rich person looking to get richer at the necessary expense of a considerably less wealthy person? Nothing much..


Implying all landlords are rich.
(Hint: mortgages, yay!)
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 52
I would say your average landlord ids richer than your average tenant.yes.

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Reply 53
Original post by FranticMind
Homeless people don't 'bid' for houses. They either go for state support, try to rent bedsits.

Homeless people generally have very little money. Even if house prices were £10k a home they WOULDN'T HAVE ONE.

They don't give a damn, most of them have much more significant troubles than housing.

HOMELESSNESS IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITS THE RESULT OF A PROBLEM.

Geez why does nobody get that...



Lack of jobs, mental instability, drug addictions, crime.
Homeless as in looking to own their own home, and having to rent in the meantime because landlords have driven up house prices and outbid them. There are the street homeless too, but I don't see how buying to rent is helping that either.


There are quite a few places where I wouldn't mind building my own home (it wouldn't be at all luxurious, of course), but there are laws against that sort of thing. Plus you've got resistance from rural areas against building more homes. Sure, I could probably get away with having a home in the middle of nowhere where the police don't bother going, but that wouldn't be so much inconvenient as it would be fatal. No caravans either, you need a fixed address these days.



i made some reference to this in a previous post :tongue:
to make an arrangement with the landlord to gain some ownership of the house for an agreed upon payment scheme. im not an expert but that sounds ideal regarding long term living.

but that doesnt necessarily mean there is something immoral regarding the plain landlord/tenant arrangement. renting is intended for short term living is it not? which i find nothing wrong with. the greyer area is long term living (which renting isnt intentionally for)

How long do people rent for before buying their own home? Estimates of age are around 30-40 for first time buyers, and this is increasing. That's a long time to be renting, and the money you spend there would buy a big chunk of a house.

Landlords won't agree to sign over a percentage of the property to their tenants, because they (currently) don't have to. The tenants are the ones needing places to live, and you need only look at the number of unoccupied properties to see that landlords are happy to let the property go empty than miss out on ripping off homeless people.
I think it's an unethical system that allows it to happen.

Although not all landlords are immoral in their intentions.

As a rent payer, I think it's a disgrace that my money is essentially going into a bottomless pit.
Reply 55
Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt
I think it's an unethical system that allows it to happen.

Although not all landlords are immoral in their intentions.

As a rent payer, I think it's a disgrace that my money is essentially going into a bottomless pit.


But you need somewhrre to live. So you must pay it. Such assign unfair system.

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Reply 56
No. It helps many people.
Reply 57
But whatever you rent, it'd be cheaper paying the mortgage on the same property in an environment where fewer people are competing to buy it.

And yes, those planning permissions are what I'm talking about, I can't just pick a bit of space in a field somewhere and build me my own home. It isn't that just everywhere convenient has been bought, but everywhere legal has been bought and 'indigenous' populations resist further building. I'm not saying you're prohibited from building your own house, but you can't get anywhere you're allowed to build it.



That is true. Though the points being raised are mainly due to the outside circumstances rather than the concept of renting in general. the first paragraph is highlighting the result of the unfortunate state first time buyers will be in, such as larger students debts etc etc. but rented housing is still intended for short term, its just that more and more people will be looking to use it for long term due to this result.
I don't follow what you're saying. It's a clear problem, with living becoming more and more expensive, and a group of people are acting in a way where they will try to maximise the cost of living, specifically affecting those who are short of money.

I go back to my sweet analogy whereby its not bad for the shopkeep to keep selling you the single sweets, its just unfortunate that the bulk could not be afforded.
Sweets are optional, having a place to live isn't. If I feel a sweetshop owner is ripping me off, I can just walk out, see if I can find somewhere cheaper, and if I can't then I'll do without. If I feel a landlord is ripping me off, and I know that landlords set their demands at the 'market rate', and they know that too, then there's nowhere else for me to go

the other issue raised are landlords competing with homeowners regarding buying a (one of many) house, which is an issue with the landlord/company rather than with renting itself. there are various ways landlords can rip people off, this is another way.
What is the distinction you're making? A landlord and renting (in their current forms) are inextricably linked.


True. Perhaps with increasing issues with housing, there will be procedures in place to help resolve this in the future.
I am not too sure about the last line however. remember the landlord is paying off he house after all, unless they have a huge chain/rich, they need tenants as much as the tenant needs the landlords house


The landlord will generally be rich. At least, they'll be richer than the typical first time buyer who will be 30-40, who are the people they're outbidding then taking the rent money from.
Original post by dannydoy
For you to buy a property to make money when another person is going to live there and pay you money (into a black hole, paying off the owners mortgage in many instances) Then when that tenant leaves they have nothing, but the owner might have half a house paid off. How is that fair?


The same applies to any service-providing business. The person who has a lot of capital to start off with sets up a business (e.g. Virgin Media), and provides a service to someone who pays a regular amount for use of that service (e.g. £50 per month for internet, phone and TV). Eventually, when the customer stops paying, the service will end, and they won't have anything physical in their hand to show for it. By that point, the business owner will have collected money to cover some of his start-up costs.

Buying a house to rent is no different to investing your money into setting up a service-providing business, in principle. The only difference is that in this case, the service is putting a roof over someone's head, rather than providing them with internet, phone and TV.


If you don't want your money "going into a bottomless pit", then the solution to that is to only ever buy physical objects, and never pay for ongoing services. Of course, that's not really feasible.
(edited 11 years ago)
Reply 59
Original post by tazarooni89
The same applies to any service-providing business. The person who has a lot of capital to start off with sets up a business (e.g. Virgin Media), and provides a service to someone who pays a regular amount for use of that service (e.g. £50 per month for internet, phone and TV). Eventually, when the customer stops paying, the service will end, and they won't have anything physical in their hand to show for it. By that point, the business owner will have collected money to cover some of his start-up costs.

Buying a house to rent is no different to investing your money into setting up a service-providing business, in principle. The only difference is that in this case, the service is putting a roof over someone's head, rather than providing them with internet, phone and TV.


If you don't want your money "going into a bottomless pit", then the solution to that is to only ever buy physical objects, and never pay for ongoing services. Of course, that's not really feasible.


There's a huge difference between housing and services, for a start you don't need phone, internet and TV to the extent that you need a home. On top of that, £50pm is nothing compared to what one has to pay in rent. Finally, the landlord gets to keep the house that their tenants have paid for at the end of it all, and continue to take money from them when the house is fully paid for - there isn't a start up cost because you can always sell it to get your cash back, and now we know there isn't even a risk because the government will step in to prop up the banks and house prices. The landlord can then take up more properties and profit from even more homeless people at a time.
(edited 11 years ago)

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