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Schools ‘expelling too many ethnic minority boys

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Original post by Blake-inator
MY friend works for the BBC, the same rule applies to all news readers in Britain... its kind of a rule!

Clearly you lack sufficient experience! And how are these heavy handed threats bad for the school? Making these threats and not following them through is bad for the school... it loses the respect of both current and prospective students. Besides which, if hairstyle didn't matter, why did the student not give in and do what they wanted?


I'm only going on the experience of my friends, two of whom are teachers and one of whom is a junior lecturer at a university. Respect works both ways, if pupils don't feel the school is respecting them enough to make fair rules, they will be less likely to respect the school back and follow those rules.

Some pupils will never follow the rules because they don't appreciate even the basic idea of an education. But if you introduce arbitrary rules then you will have lower compliance from kids that would otherwise follow rules.

Exclusions rates are publically available statistics for schools. If a school is excluding a lot of students it suggests they don't have a very good handle on discipline.
Original post by Jimbo1234
Wow, you must have attended or know pretty crappy schools.
No, they just didn't feel natural hairstyles were worth regulating.

Certain hairstyles are associated with the bottom end of society thus good schools do not want their pupils to reflect these people and want them to aspire to be greater than those people.
Cornrows are associated with the "bottom end of society"?

Why not have an afro?
Because it is difficult to manage and needs to be combed frequently to keep fluffy. The ease of combing straight hair and corkscrewed hair is markedly different.

Why shave it off?
Because it is easier to manage.

Are they ashamed of having fuzzy hair?
Probably not.

That speaks more about society outside of schools than it does the school. The school is saying everyone should be treated equally. Are you saying this is wrong?
The style options/management difficulty of those with afro-textured hair and those with straight hair are different, so it is inappropriate to impose equal standards onto both parties.

Is there a significant difference between cornrows and those who allow their naturally straight hair to flow backwards?
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by whyumadtho
No, they just didn't feel natural hairstyles were worth regulating.


So a bad school. All private or grammar schools I know of have regulations on such things.


Cornrows are associated with the "bottom end of society"?


Yup. What rock have you been living under?


Because it is difficult to manage and needs to be combed frequently to keep fluffy. The ease of combing straight hair and corkscrewed hair is markedly different.
Because it is easier to manage.


Sounds so hard...oh wait. If you find that hard, than why would I suspect that such a person would do poorly academically? God help them with algebra if combing is a challenge.

Probably not.


So they are lazy?

The style options/management difficulty of those with afro-textured hair and those with straight hair are different, so it is inappropriate to impose equal standards onto both parties.


But as I mentioned above, it is actually easy and a good school wants pupils who do not shy away from anything difficult, thus to force good hair discipline would make them a better student.


Is there a significant difference between cornrows and those who allow their naturally straight hair to flow backwards?


Yes.
Huge.
Original post by Jimbo1234
So a bad school. All private or grammar schools I know of have regulations on such things.
No, they just didn't feel natural hairstyles were worth regulating. This indicates nothing about the standard of the school.

Yup. What rock have you been living under?
I've never heard of this before. What is socially undesirable about them?

Sounds so hard...oh wait. If you find that hard, than why would I suspect that such a person would do poorly academically? God help them with algebra if combing is a challenge.
It takes time and may be painful depending on the coarseness and length of the hair, and the duration between combing. Many people do not find the management requirements desirable. It's why many people wear easily maintained hairstyles when they're not doing anything special.

So they are lazy?
See above.

But as I mentioned above, it is actually easy and a good school wants pupils who do not shy away from anything difficult, thus to force good hair discipline would make them a better student.
The management difficulty makes it undesirable. Similarly, you use cleaned, centrally-heated and pressurised water; a shower; a cooker; etc. because your life is made easier by having these amenities.

What? Please present evidence that someone's choice of hairstyle influences their academic success. I suppose all the naturally straight-haired people who do nothing but add a few clips to prevent it going in their faces are underachievers. :rolleyes:

Yes.
Huge.
What are the significant differences?
Guys, you're all missing the point here and a key question - to review whether it is "discriminatory" (which I don't believe it to be), you must turn the question upon its head:

In other words, if a "white" pupil were to 'sport' cornrows, would he be expelled?

If the answer is affirmative, then you have your answer.

Similarly, you can't have those with Caucasian-textured hair having outrageous or showy hairstyles, such as an Elvis-style hairstyle.
Original post by Jimbo1234



Yup. What rock have you been living under?





Actually, "cornrows" (or braids, in the english language :lol:) were typically sported by any female, should she wish to style her hair as such. It was only later that males (wrongly and distastefully, in my opinion) began to adopt the style. It is my belief that only females should sport braids - really, they tend to feminise a male, should he put his hair in such a style.
Reply 46
Avatar for Royale
Royale
2
Original post by HumanSupremacist
Guys, you're all missing the point here and a key question - to review whether it is "discriminatory" (which I don't believe it to be), you must turn the question upon its head:

In other words, if a "white" pupil were to 'sport' cornrows, would he be expelled?

If the answer is affirmative, then you have your answer.

Similarly, you can't have those with Caucasian-textured hair having outrageous or showy hairstyles, such as an Elvis-style hairstyle.


But these schools obviously know white people aren't going to have cornrows. If they banned people from having a bieber haircut, well they wouldn't to be fair.
Original post by Royale
But these schools obviously know white people aren't going to have cornrows. If they banned people from having a bieber haircut, well they wouldn't to be fair.


What exactly is a "bieber haircut" - I haven't see Bieber sporting any outlandish hairstyles... :holmes:

Additionally, some "white" people sometimes do sport braided hairstyles.
Original post by whyumadtho
No, they just didn't feel natural hairstyles were worth regulating. This indicates nothing about the standard of the school.


As I said, and unless you can prove otherwise, good schools have strict dress codes, dress codes that include ones hair.


I've never heard of this before. What is socially undesirable about them?


So a pretty big rock then...
Well nothing is "undesirable" about them per se, just like a skinhead. The issues, as I said, is those who predominately have this style. To put it another way, when did you last see a politician or MP have them?


It takes time and may be painful depending on the coarseness and length of the hair, and the duration between combing. Many people do not find the management requirements desirable. It's why many people wear easily maintained hairstyles when they're not doing anything special.

See above.


So what happens to your hair when it isn't combed? If it is left to just grow?


The management difficulty makes it undesirable. Similarly, you use cleaned, centrally-heated and pressurised water; a shower; a cooker; etc. because your life is made easier by having these amenities.


But they cost. With that logic, these people should just go to a saloon more often or buy products that resolve the issue.


What? Please present evidence that someone's choice of hairstyle influences their academic success. I suppose all the naturally straight-haired people who do nothing but add a few clips to prevent it going in their faces are underachievers. :rolleyes:


A solid, simple haircut tells you that the person has a solid, straightforward character who does not partake in tomfoolery. A person who makes no effort with theirs is obviously a slacker, and those who shave it offer clearly want to compete with leukemia patients or have a problem with lice on their estate.


What are the significant differences?


You have eyes yes? So you can tell me.


Original post by HumanSupremacist
Actually, "cornrows" (or braids, in the english language :lol:) were typically sported by any female, should she wish to style her hair as such. It was only later that males (wrongly and distastefully, in my opinion) began to adopt the style. It is my belief that only females should sport braids - really, they tend to feminise a male, should he put his hair in such a style.


Well put.
Original post by Jimbo1234
As I said, and unless you can prove otherwise, good schools have strict dress codes, dress codes that include ones hair.
Since you made the claim that my school is bad because it didn't have a policy on natural hairstyles, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate this relationship.

So a pretty big rock then...
Not really. It's one of the very few styles those with long, afro-textured hair can wear. I see no reason to associate it with something undesirable when it has such widespread use.

Well nothing is "undesirable" about them per se, just like a skinhead. The issues, as I said, is those who predominately have this style.
Most socially undesirable males that I have seen have fades or other very short hairstyles. I haven't seen cornrows any more frequently than I see them in the general population.

I don't associate males with very short haircuts with anything undesirable either. In this case, it would be the hairstyle in addition to other aspects of their demeanour/appearance that influences my perception. The haircut alone is meaningless, as many males who are not socially undesirable have it.

To put it another way, when did you last see a politician or MP have them?
This doesn't mean anything, unless you're arguing styles worn by politicians = indicative of socially desirable people; styles not worn by politicians = indicative of socially undesirable people.

So what happens to your hair when it isn't combed? If it is left to just grow?
Afro-textured hair becomes matted when it is uncombed (particularly on hot days/wet conditions). It needs to be combed frequently or the corkscrews will begin to shrink and tangle (which is why it becomes more painful to comb if not done regularly). As far as I'm aware, tighter corkscrews intensify these effects.

But they cost. With that logic, these people should just go to a saloon more often or buy products that resolve the issue.
My point was that you have chosen the easier option because the more difficult ones (procuring, cleaning and heating your own water; lighting your own fire; etc.) are undesirable. It is perfectly reasonable to do this.

A solid, simple haircut tells you that the person has a solid, straightforward character who does not partake in tomfoolery.
...What? This is a school environment where people are assessed on their academic performance, not their haircuts.

A person who makes no effort with theirs is obviously a slacker
It is not unreasonable to prefer the easier option, as I have explained with the amenities analogy.

and those who shave it offer clearly want to compete with leukemia patients or have a problem with lice on their estate.
Citation needed.

You have eyes yes? So you can tell me.
:sigh: Here we go again... You make a (weak and easily refuted) point then ask me to elaborate on what you've said because you know your point is untenable. :rolleyes: This act bores me.
Original post by whyumadtho
Why does the school say no? Other than leaving it as an afro, cornrows and braids are some of the very few styles that people with long afro-textured hair can produce. Why should males with long afro hair be obliged to shave it off to continue their education? This seems discriminatory on the basis of ethnic origin, gender or both.


Not really. A lot can be done with any type of hair. I agree with the rest of your message, however. This does seem discriminatory, not against race, but gender and curly hair.

Original post by Precious12
The question I would like to ask schools is would they prefer for these boys to come in with messy afros or perfectly neat and sensible cornrows? Its ridiculous... schools cannot force their students to cut their hair :/


Messy afros....:confused:
Original post by HopefulMidwife
Not really. A lot can be done with any type of hair.
There's not very much that can be done without straightening it (particularly in terms of traditionally masculine styles).
Original post by whyumadtho
There's not very much that can be done without straightening it (particularly in terms of traditionally masculine styles).


There's plenty of things that can be done :s-smilie: have a look at Kimmytube on Youtube or on longhaircareforum.com.

Do you have afro hair? I don't, but I have curly hair and I despise this idea that afro hair is limiting. Just as much, or as little, things can be done with it as straight hair; it's down to the person how creative or motivated they are.
Original post by whyumadtho
Since you made the claim that my school is bad because it didn't have a policy on natural hairstyles, the burden of proof is on you to substantiate this relationship.


And you know such a thing is impossible to prove from this end. No school website publishes their dress code. But apparently you are claiming that kids with full on skinheads will be walking into a King's School just as they do in some inner city school in Leeds :rofl: Ok, go warp reality if it helps you sleep well at night.


Not really. It's one of the very few styles those with long, afro-textured hair can wear. I see no reason to associate it with something undesirable when it has such widespread use.


R&B music killed it, just like how the poor and neonazis killed a shaved head. If you want to look like Ludicrous than my all means go mad, just don't expect a warm welcome from many folks.


Most socially undesirable males that I have seen have fades or other very short hairstyles. I haven't seen cornrows any more frequently than I see them in the general population.


Which is what and where exactly? If I said that, the I would be referring to zero, never, none.


I don't associate males with very short haircuts with anything undesirable either. In this case, it would be the hairstyle in addition to other aspects of their demeanour/appearance that influences my perception. The haircut alone is meaningless, as many males who are not socially undesirable have it.


Where do you live? :confused:


This doesn't mean anything, unless you're arguing styles worn by politicians = indicative of socially desirable people; styles not worn by politicians = indicative of socially undesirable people.


And I am.


Afro-textured hair becomes matted when it is uncombed (particularly on hot days/wet conditions). It needs to be combed frequently or the corkscrews will begin to shrink and tangle (which is why it becomes more painful to comb if not done regularly). As far as I'm aware, tighter corkscrews intensify these effects.


And what does that look like? Why not get a Will Smith?


My point was that you have chosen the easier option because the more difficult ones (procuring, cleaning and heating your own water; lighting your own fire; etc.) are undesirable. It is perfectly reasonable to do this.


Sometimes easier does not mean better, but means lazier. We all know the best things in life are the hardest, so maybe that also applies to your hair.


...What? This is a school environment where people are assessed on their academic performance, not their haircuts.


And you must know that someones appearance reflects their personality? A clean haircut means they will most likely be more focused and from a stable family unit.


Citation needed.


Life.

:sigh: Here we go again... You make a (weak and easily refuted) point then ask me to elaborate on what you've said because you know your point is untenable. :rolleyes: This act bores me.


Or you fail to follow simple and common chains of thought and reasoning and ask for citations in wholly inappropriate places, as if everything needs a citation and that you lack experience to argue against the point. Is this the case? Have you travelled far and lived many places? Do you struggle to keep up with people in a normal conversation? Do you need a whistle for when you lose your career? :teehee:
Reply 54
Avatar for Beth_L_G
Beth_L_G
10
Our school had a "natural hair" rule. No hair dyes that couldn't be a natural hair colour (a brunette could dye their hair blonde or ginger but not pink or blue) and had do be down and combed or tied back into a neat ponytail.

I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Rules on hairstyle are perfectly warranted. Schools want pupils to reflect the working environment they are in. If you're not willing to follow the rules then of course you would get excluded.

It's only a hairstyle. If it means that much to you that you would be willing to lose your education to keep it then something is seriously wrong
Original post by Jimbo1234
And you know such a thing is impossible to prove from this end. No school website publishes their dress code. But apparently you are claiming that kids with full on skinheads will be walking into a King's School just as they do in some inner city school in Leeds :rofl: Ok, go warp reality if it helps you sleep well at night.
You made the claim, not me; perhaps you should shut up if you cannot corroborate them. :h:

R&B music killed it, just like how the poor and neonazis killed a shaved head. If you want to look like Ludicrous than my all means go mad, just don't expect a warm welcome from many folks.
I've never encountered anyone who holds cornrows in particularly low regard. Do you mean rap? If so, then it would be the dialect and deportment that people associate with it, not the hairstyle. 50 Cent, The Game, Young Jeezy, Jadakiss, Lil B, Raekwon, Ja Rule, Jay-Z, the list goes on. All of these people have fades or close shaves and Ludacris shaved his hair several years ago. I can't actually think of any prolific rappers who consistently wear cornrows.

Which is what and where exactly? If I said that, the I would be referring to zero, never, none.
Various places in north, east and south London.

Where do you live? :confused:
It doesn't matter. I've seen numerous 'white' males with close-shaved hair and thought nothing of it. If I were born several decades ago it might be a different story, but I've seen many ordinary members of society with this haircut. Again, far more amongst the normal population than people who are undesirable.

And I am.
:rolleyes: Of course, politics is not only a paragon of virtue, but an exclusive one at that. Anybody who doesn't resemble a politician is socially undesirable. :yep:

And what does that look like?
Something like this:



Why not get a Will Smith?
Because they don't want to.

Sometimes easier does not mean better, but means lazier. We all know the best things in life are the hardest, so maybe that also applies to your hair.
Easier always means lazier, which makes it a non-point, since virtually everyone (if not everyone) prefers the easier option. Again, it's why you have all these amenities available to you.

Your second statement is nonsense. It's harder to walk several miles every day to collect dirty, parasite-infested water; this is not better than the easier option of having cleaned, on-demand, pressurised water pumped directly to your house.

And you must know that someones appearance reflects their personality? A clean haircut means they will most likely be more focused and from a stable family unit.
What's messy about cornrows? They seem neat to me.

Life.
So you've asked people why they've shaved their hair and they've told you it's because they have a lice problem or want to resemble a leukaemia patient? Okay. :rolleyes:

Or you fail to follow simple and common chains of thought and reasoning and ask for citations in wholly inappropriate places, as if everything needs a citation and that you lack experience to argue against the point. Is this the case? Have you travelled far and lived many places? Do you struggle to keep up with people in a normal conversation? Do you need a whistle for when you lose your career? :teehee:
I'm simply asking you what the significant differences are. I don't believe there are any. Why do you believe I'm wrong?
Original post by HopefulMidwife
There's plenty of things that can be done :s-smilie: have a look at Kimmytube on Youtube or on longhaircareforum.com. Do you have afro hair? I don't, but I have curly hair and I despise this idea that afro hair is limiting. Just as much, or as little, things can be done with it as straight hair; it's down to the person how creative or motivated they are.
I don't see what's so controversial about what I've said. Having hair that naturally contracts and clumps limits the amount of things that can be done with it, particularly for traditionally masculine styles. Looking at some of your suggestions, I see that some of the more distinct hairstyles require the hair to be straightened to some degree (or the people's curls are naturally less tight).
Original post by whyumadtho
OMGWTFBBQ, did that policy also apply to girls?


No, other than that long hair should be well kept and in good condition.
Original post by whyumadtho
You made the claim, not me; perhaps you should shut up if you cannot corroborate them. :h:


:facepalm2: Because everyone has to corroborate things which have no record on the internet for numerous reasons; obviousness being one of them.
The fact that you actually ask for evidence of this is just proof of your denial or naivety to the world around you. But just to make sure, what type of school did you go to?


I've never encountered anyone who holds cornrows in particularly low regard. Do you mean rap? If so, then it would be the dialect and deportment that people associate with it, not the hairstyle. 50 Cent, The Game, Young Jeezy, Jadakiss, Lil B, Raekwon, Ja Rule, Jay-Z, the list goes on. All of these people have fades or close shaves and Ludacris shaved his hair several years ago. I can't actually think of any prolific rappers who consistently wear cornrows.


But some have, and much media also portray the poor blacks as having cornrows eg The Wire.
You're just pushing water uphill here.


Various places in north, east and south London.


Because London makes up the UK folks!
:rofl:
And yes, I will probably refer back to this invaluable quote for everything else you say in every other post.


It doesn't matter. I've seen numerous 'white' males with close-shaved hair and thought nothing of it. If I were born several decades ago it might be a different story, but I've seen many ordinary members of society with this haircut. Again, far more amongst the normal population than people who are undesirable.


No...it really does matter. From the looks of it, London has been your only home. This explains a hell of a lot about you and your views.
Define "ordinary members of society". Everyone I have seen with a skinhead has been a peice of crap who should have been strung up and shot, and this is not me being judgemental, but my experience. Skinheads are rough, aggressive, and very stupid.


:rolleyes: Of course, politics is not only a paragon of virtue, but an exclusive one at that. Anybody who doesn't resemble a politician is socially undesirable. :yep:


Well seeing that these folks are elected, thus have to hold an image people like and respect, they are the perfect example of what a society deems to look respectable :redface:



Something like this:

Spoiler



That's not too bad. Just get a trim/shave and its fine. A bit boring, but acceptable.


Because they don't want to.


Just like how fat people don't want to lose weight. Laziness always has consequences.


Easier always means lazier, which makes it a non-point, since virtually everyone (if not everyone) prefers the easier option. Again, it's why you have all these amenities available to you.


Not at all. They save time to allow for more things to be done. They increase efficiency in the house and day-to-day living. When it comes to ones image, it only takes minutes to sort yourself out, and the mindset it helps you be in and how it improves your image to people is invaluable.


Your second statement is nonsense. It's harder to walk several miles every day to collect dirty, parasite-infested water; this is not better than the easier option of having cleaned, on-demand, pressurised water pumped directly to your house.


But they are lazy to not build a well.


What's messy about cornrows? They seem neat to me.


Well they don't to me.


So you've asked people why they've shaved their hair and they've told you it's because they have a lice problem or want to resemble a leukaemia patient? Okay. :rolleyes:


Tell me you didn't just write that. Oh no...you did :facepalm: Obviously I was being sarcastic and condescending. How did you not see that? Anyone didn't have realised that, but of course you didn't. I will say that this conversation has been the most enlightening about you as a person and has explained all those questions you have dodged answering in the past.


I'm simply asking you what the significant differences are. I don't believe there are any. Why do you believe I'm wrong?


People choose how they look, thus people who look similar will have chosen that style for similar reasons, thus their thought process will have been similar. From what I've seen, I know you will struggle to realise or accept this, but that is how people work. This is why goths are very similar, skinheads etc. Therefore people who choose to have very extreme and bad haircuts will have something in common with their personality. As I've said, this is why skinheads and cornrows are a bad choice and why any good educational institution does not allow them.
But some have, and much media also portray the poor blacks as having cornrows eg The Wire.
You're just pushing water uphill here.
The minority. The minority also had cornrows in The Wire. :confused: Again, Avon, Stringer, Marlo, Chris, Wee-Bey, Bodie, Poot, Michael, Fruit, Monk, Bubbles, Kenard, virtually all of the drug-dealing/taking extras, and many others I can't remember. In fact, go here. You can see that the minority of the poor 'black' characters have cornrows (Prop Joe has braids). Are you going to argue that 'black' males with short-cut hair indicate undesirability now? :rolleyes:

Debunked rap/R&B.
Debunked The Wire.
What's next? :smile:

Because London makes up the UK folks!
:rofl:
And yes, I will probably refer back to this invaluable quote for everything else you say in every other post.
...When/where did I say London made up the UK? I initially said: "Most socially undesirable males that I have seen have fades or other very short hairstyles. I haven't seen cornrows any more frequently than I see them in the general population." You then asked me where I have made my observations. I said north, east and south London. Of the people in north, east and south London, I have not seen cornrows more frequently on socially undesirable males than I see them in the general population. Do you understand?

And given that London has the largest 'black' population and the largest amount of 'black' criminals/undesirables, it is an important place to observe.

No...it really does matter. From the looks of it, London has been your only home. This explains a hell of a lot about you and your views.
I said I've seen people there with cornrows, not that I live there. :rolleyes: Where I live is irrelevant.

Define "ordinary members of society". Everyone I have seen with a skinhead has been a peice of crap who should have been strung up and shot, and this is not me being judgemental, but my experience. Skinheads are rough, aggressive, and very stupid.
Just the typical members of the public who are getting on with their days.

Well seeing that these folks are elected, thus have to hold an image people like and respect, they are the perfect example of what a society deems to look respectable :redface:
This neither implies they were elected because of the specific image they hold nor that the images they do not hold are not respected.

That's not too bad. Just get a trim/shave and its fine. A bit boring, but acceptable.
Many people don't want to comb through that every morning/throughout the day, so they shave it.

Just like how fat people don't want to lose weight. Laziness always has consequences.
I knew you would bring fatness into this somehow. A hairstyle is not comparable to obesity, at all.

Not at all. They save time to allow for more things to be done. They increase efficiency in the house and day-to-day living. When it comes to ones image, it only takes minutes to sort yourself out, and the mindset it helps you be in and how it improves your image to people is invaluable.
Indeed. The same applies to hair.

But they are lazy to not build a well.
Yeah, the people who walk several miles every day carrying many litres of water are lazy. Of course. :dunce:

Well they don't to me.
What's wrong with these:



There's nothing messy about it.

Tell me you didn't just write that. Oh no...you did :facepalm: Obviously I was being sarcastic and condescending. How did you not see that? Anyone didn't have realised that, but of course you didn't. I will say that this conversation has been the most enlightening about you as a person and has explained all those questions you have dodged answering in the past.
You have a history of imbecilic nonsense and hyperbole, so I take everything you say at face-value. Your points about the best things in life being the hardest and the notions that short-cut hair/cornrows alone are somehow indicative of a person's character are some examples of this. "He can't be this stupid" is my usual reaction, but it's you, so yeah.

Why make a point then retreat from it via sarcasm? Were you unable to defend it?

People choose how they look, thus people who look similar will have chosen that style for similar reasons, thus their thought process will have been similar. From what I've seen, I know you will struggle to realise or accept this, but that is how people work. This is why goths are very similar, skinheads etc. Therefore people who choose to have very extreme and bad haircuts will have something in common with their personality. As I've said, this is why skinheads and cornrows are a bad choice and why any good educational institution does not allow them.
I need evidence that the majority of 'white' males with short-cut hair styles and 'black' males with cornrows are socially undesirable. Unlike a mohawk or something similar, these are relativity common hairstyles that cut across a range of sociocultural circles and cannot be said to be indicative of an individual's personality. Without good reason, you seem to believe that most/every 'white' male with short hair is a violent skinhead and most/every 'black' male with cornrows is a gangster.

How on earth is very short hair/cornrows 'extreme'? :confused:
(edited 11 years ago)

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