Oxford gang found guilty of grooming and sexually exploiting girls

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So you would put this down to con-incidence, ( the fact that all the victims were white, all the crimals of pakistani orgin).

Would you not also accept that civic distrubance in northen towns by groups such as the EDL were due to cultural divisions.

Of course no-one is saying that the vast majority of x culture does this to y culture. But when x does something repeatedly to y and y does things repeatedly to x to the extent where we have civl unrest in northern towns I think that we have a wider problem here and that to put it down to co-incidence is to ignore the wider issue. We have failed to make some people feel welcome within our society, leading to them feeling like outsiders.

Unfortunately your argument simply isn't true. The issue isn't with the pakistani population as a whole but rather with particular people WITHIN that population. To claim that we have "failed to make some people welcome within our society, making them feel like outsiders" as a justification for their behaviour is both abhorrent and untrue. There is no cultural or genetic difference between the pakistani and british culture when it comes to rape. It is an egregious act in both societies (and is in fact punished more punitively in Pakistan.)

These men are not normal. Quite clearly their parents haven't brought them up in a way which has allowed them to respect anyone and I'm almost certain that their behaviour is not exclusive to a particular culture, given the chance these are the sorts of men that would carry out these acts on any vulnerable women. White or non white.

Reply 21

Extricated

Original post by slickrick666999

They were targeted them because white, non-Muslim girls are seen as 'less' of value in their communities.

I live in London and have seen this type of hostile, aggressive and degrading attitude toward white women. Although these were not women, they're were 12 year old kids. Just abusing the unclean infidels as they saw it.

I am pakistani and see no evidence of this within my normal family or friend circle. It is akin to arguing that priests see young boys as "less" value than other people in society. It is just a sickening cancer that has spread in these areas and certainly is not encouraged in any way whatsoever (in fact, if shariah law was followed then these guys wouldn't have been here for much longer.) It is a problem within their own families not the community.

Reply 22

Ayesha1234

What those animals did was disgusting but the girl went to the police twice and no one was charged? :s The grooming lasted a few years, surely the care homes would've thought something was up...?

This could've been avoided :colonhash:

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Reply 23

Lucky260

Yes, all the criminals were from one background, as were the victims, but we have to be careful not to make general statements about cultures just because of items in the news. They're in the news because they're unusual. The gang may have all been Muslims but I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims who believe what happened does not match their religious beliefs (like with 9/11) and was entirely grotesque.

Reply 24

Xmarksthesh0t

As a Muslim I completely feel these men should be hanged, they have done an atrocious act and should receive a conviction which is (still not as harsh as what they did) Death.

Reply 25

Ayesha1234

Original post by slickrick666999

Well they targeted girls from disadvantaged backgrounds, who were mostly in care. This indicates that they were targeted specifically because they were easy to access/ groom not because they're white. Muslim girls and non Muslim girls from better backgrounds are better protected from animals like these, they'd also be harder to groom.

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Reply 26

Frube

Original post by Lucky260

How many more will it take for you to believe that the issue might have cultural and religious links ?

Reply 27

flyingarmbarman

Original post by Lucky260

equally there can be two muslims that have entirely differnt takes on what quran says, islamic rules etc. i think its an intersting area to look at, and maybe a new thread needs to be created ie does isolam influnce these grooming gangs? there is an argument that if you surpress sexual freedom in a culture (which islam does) then some will eventually resort to crime to find gratification and quite extreme (in this case with minors) also the most devout muslims will tell you that mohammed had a wife of no more than 9 years old.

Reply 28

Thriftworks

Original post by Extricated

Unfortunately your argument simply isn't true. The issue isn't with the pakistani population as a whole but rather with particular people WITHIN that population. To claim that we have "failed to make some people welcome within our society, making them feel like outsiders" as a justification for their behavior is both abhorrent and untrue. There is no cultural or genetic difference between the pakistani and british culture when it comes to rape. It is an egregious act in both societies (and is in fact punished more punitively in Pakistan.)

These men are not normal. Quite clearly their parents haven't brought them up in a way which has allowed them to respect anyone and I'm almost certain that their behaviour is not exclusive to a particular culture, given the chance these are the sorts of men that would carry out these acts on any vulnerable women. White or non white.

I'm NOT arguing that this a an issue that concerns the WHOLE pakistani polulation.

As for cultural and genetic difference to rape, don't be silly of course I'm not suggesting that.

What I am suggesting is that in some areas, sucessive waves of immigration to certain areas ( and logically so on part of those moving here) has resulted in certain areas being dubbed white areas etc, thus in areas such as inner city Bradford a clear divide has opened up, that is splitting people by race, ethnicity and religion.

Now the results of this are civil disturbance and a feeling of dissociation with the other group, lots of the customers were from Bradford maybe they felt inclined to rape white girls as they felt that they were part of a separate community. Many people on the ground would hold this view.

This one incident I agree cannot purely be put down to ethnic and cultural divide, these were horrible people who did horrible things. However to ignore the elephant in the room is dangerous, if we do not address this issue civil disturbances like those see at EDL rallies will continue this is not good for society as a whole.

Reply 29

Oschene23

Original post by Thriftworks

Why? Unless there has been a radical shift aren't white middle aged males the most likely to commit such acts - according to crime figures.

Only in numerical terms and quite obviously so. They make up the vast vast majority of males in this country. Come back to me with the same figures in percentage terms relative to each groups proportion they make up of society, and see if you can claim the same nonsense.

Reply 30

Steevee

Original post by Umar1

So should we also collectively describe other paedophiles, armed robbers etc as Christians, jews, hindus or Sikhs??

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If in a Muslim country a bunch of foreign Christian men had specifically been targeting native, non-Christian girls, then yes, it would be relevant to describe them as Christian :smile:

Reply 31

deathhead

Just to make an observation, weird how it's the same with stuff like dog-fighting, the culprits are usually Asian or some other ethnic-minority in origin. And before I get negged, I'm not being racist it's just quite a clear thing to see, sick of how over sensitive and politically correct this forum can get. I bet some idiot is going to call me racist for making this observation.

Reply 32

`Jts

That's Disgusting. I don't understand how a group of people can be so sick. I hope they serve a long sentence.

Reply 33

flyingarmbarman

Original post by deathhead

no, im sure you will be commended for your well researched and einstein-like conclusions.

Reply 34

qasidb

When I click on these types of articles I think, "Please don't be Muslim, please don't be Muslim, please don't be Muslim". I see the pictures and they're brown so I think, "Okay, so they're brown, there's still a chance they're not Muslim. Not all brown people are Muslim!" And then I read the names:
- Kamar Jamil
- Akhtar Dogar
- Anjum Dogar
- Assad Hussain
- Mohammed Karrar
- Bassam Karrar
- Zeeshan Ahmed
- Mohammed Hussain

Yeah. They're Muslim.
It makes me feel so angry. These are the types of people which feed the critics. Why do so many of the rapists have to be Muslim? It's pretty ironic since Islam doesn't allow you to rape and yet here they are raping anything that moves.

Reply 35

The_Internet

Original post by flyingarmbarman

actually bbc say they were not all asian, two were noth african (which is a differnt continent btw) they all were muslim however, so that would be a more accurate collective description

Are you trying to imply that they did this because they're Muslim?

Original post by Thriftworks

Vile. of course bad people come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

However the fact the all the convicted were of pakistani origin, that all the victims were white and that all the 'customers' of these gangs were muslim . Is deeply disturbing as it alludes to ugly cultural and ethnic divisions being exposed within our society. We are no longer culturally cohesive, enjoy the results.

Yes, these guys may not be White, but I think that the guardian has a good article on it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

Of course, it is an absolutely awful thing, but it's also pretty dispicable that you are trying to use these men as something to bash all Pakistanis (and then Muslims) with ie: implying it's part of culture somehow. What do you say about all these white people?

http://edlreview.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Grooming

And what do you say about these people?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12762333

This is also a rather satirical take on affairs:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/06/sexual-abuse-in-white-community?INTCMP=SRCH

If you think it's somehow part of culture, then what is it about white culture that allows people to get away with rape for years? It's the establishment. It's PC. Yadda, yadda yadda (/sarcasm)

But of course, I guess if it's white people, culture doesn't come in to it (Which of course it doesn't), but if they're not white, suddenly it comes down to "that's their culture" What double standards. What hypocrisy

Reply 36

Umar1

Original post by Steevee

If in a Muslim country a bunch of foreign Christian men had specifically been targeting native, non-Christian girls, then yes, it would be relevant to describe them as Christian :smile:

What if they weren't foreign, and roughly 1 in 20 would be a Christian?

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Reply 37

flyingarmbarman

Original post by de_monies

Are you trying to imply that they did this because they're Muslim?

no , read the full conversation instead of one post if you want to grasp what was discussed

Reply 38

flyingarmbarman

Original post by qasidb

Yeah. They're Muslim.It makes me feel so angry. These are the types of people which feed the critics. Why do so many of the rapists have to be Muslim? It's pretty ironic since Islam doesn't allow you to rape and yet here they are raping anything that moves.

i doubt any culture 'allows' rape. islam does allow sex with minors however