Oxford gang found guilty of grooming and sexually exploiting girls

And these depraved men [in Rochdale] would never have been convicted had it not been for Nazir Afzal, the North-west’s Chief Crown Prosecutor, a Muslim of Pakistani origin

Interesting opinion on the subject here: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/05/15/the-oxford-asian-grooming-gang-were-not-in-fact-all-asian-but-they-were-all-muslim-is-this-a-problem-we-are-afraid-to-face/

Something I didn't know:

He must be another of those people who "Muslims don't take seriously" ^^

He doesn't claim to be a "scholar/imam" and then tell us some of the most stupid things about Islam. Nor does he make sweeping and bigoted generalizations (as far as I'm aware).

There's a big difference, something which you seemed to have somehow missed.

Sweeping and bigoted generalisations now? You mean a Muslim has said something about other Muslims, but you prefer to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your worldview?

And just who exactly are you in the Muslim world to unilaterally decide for all of Islam that this imam should be disregarded, the second coming of Mohammed? What was that you were saying about sweeping and bigoted generalisations again?

Curious, but I thought that these imams who had done all that study and all were supposed to be respected over those who haven't (those like yourself) and all. From the ouside it seems more to me that it smacks of cherry picking - selecting the bits you agree with and disregarding the bits you don't agree with. What precisely qualifies you to make that assessment?

You wasn't really saying that though was you so I'm not sure why you're rewriting your personal TSR history. You said it now, when defending your post but you never said it or hinted at it and so my reply is still justified. I'm just sick of people banging on about how there's a huge problem with Pakistani sex gangs when there's really not. Most Pakistanis are hard working, religious people who have no desire to commit any of these heinous crimes and yet whenever one of these stories crops up, the vilification inevitably starts and resistance to ignorance quickly weakens.

I'm half Pakistani so I know what I'm talking about and I live in a community where the majority living here are Pakistani and most hate the kinds of bad Pakistanis who commit these sorts of crimes, can everyone please remember that.

Sweeping and bigoted generalisations now? You mean a Muslim has said something about other Muslims, but you prefer to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your worldview?

And just who exactly are you in the Muslim world to unilaterally decide for all of Islam that this imam should be disregarded, the second coming of Mohammed? What was that you were saying about sweeping and bigoted generalisations again?

Curious, but I thought that these imams who had done all that study and all were supposed to be respected over those who haven't (those like yourself) and all.

From the ouside it seems more to me that it smacks of cherry picking - selecting the bits you agree with and disregarding the bits you don't agree with. What precisely qualifies you to make that assessment?

1. His beliefs and preaching (in the context of Islam), gives him no credibility. Maybe to a Non-Muslim who's clueless about Islam or Muslim perceptions it may be different, but to those who actually have a bit of common sense, whatever this man says tends to be a bit of a joke.

2. He doesn't know enough about the Islamic sciences to even be considered an "Imam". Basic grammar like knowing the plural of simple words shows he doesn't know Arabic adequately enough, which is one of the requirements of Scholar.

3. His bigoted generalisations includes his accusation that "Most Imam's contribute towards the so called brutish misogyny that a small minority of Muslims (like any group of people) show".

- It is pretty clear he has not been to "most of the sermons that imam's give in the UK". Speaking from personal experience, I've never ever, in all the sermons I've been to throughout London, ever heard any of the Imam's in the sermon speak about how; "oh women needs to cover up more, they're a disgrace"

Most sermons tend to be about a Islamic historical story, and how we can apply that into our modern day life (gender neutral). Or, depending on the politics of the current situation, talk about Palestine, Syria etc. to make people more aware of what's happening.

- I wouldn't be surprised if he has some bitterness towards most Imams in the UK, who all consider him a joke (like most Muslims do anyways).

He has no evidence whatsoever, that any of the well known Imams (forget "most") make any contribution towards any ill treatment towards women.



1. He's not an Imam, not according to most Muslims. Let's not make a joke out of the word.

2. Someone who actually knows more then just the basics of my religion, its theology and its different sciences, and the different interpretations. What the Orthodox interpretations and understandings are and what the requirements of a scholar is - to no this guy is a tool who has absolutely know clue about what he says.

And if you go to any Muslim community, be it on an online forum, or a mosque and start preaching what this guy does, you'll either get banned or kicked out.

Now if you want to define something else as "Islam", which supports what Taj Hargey says, then all the best. For most Muslims, we'll keep a tight grip on our beliefs thanks.




There are many Imam's out there who people disagree with. Throughout Islamic history, Imam's would disagree with one another on many different matters.

There disagreements were based on deep theological issues, not on some very basics, like Taj Hargey is trying to dispute. For this reason, it's important that Muslims (And Non-Muslims if they care) to know that he's not representative of Islam or Muslims as a whole, and only speaks about what he thinks, which as far as I'm concerned, has no credibility.

You don't even have any idea about Islam, so how on earth can you know if I'm "cherry picking" or not?

Oh, look, what a coincidence. True to form you are employing another standard denial tactic. Firstly, it's 'No true Scotsman, and now it's 'What about the white paedophiles, there's more of them?'

...

Rep when I can rep you again.

I hope this not just a thread to make the Asian/muslim communtity look bad

I have read this entire discussion, and frankly, I'm disappointed at the quality of debate here. I myself am a practicing Muslim, and I'm disgusted by the existence of these gangs (as any sane person should be) and annoyed at the way the media cover it.

I think it's fair to say that these scumbags had a Muslim background. By that, I mean someone in their family would have practiced Islam at some point. That does NOT make them Muslims. It's interesting, religious background only becomes an issue in the media when someone with a Muslim background commits a crime. If religious background were mentioned in EVERY news article, we'd be seeing expressions like 'Christian rapist' or 'Atheist abuser' much more frequently (as it is, we don't see that at all). What I'm trying to say is that these people are definitely NOT practicing Muslims.

It's funny how people here are blaming Islam for sexual repression etc etc and all the tired, lazy stereotypes about Muslims. These men belong to the drinking, drug-taking, clubbing, hedonistic subculture of their communities. Any Muslims on this board will know exactly the sort of people I'm talking about. The kind that you see twice a year at Eid prayers with zigzags shaved into their hair, but you will never see anywhere near a mosque for the remainder of the year. They were almost definitely getting laid on a regular basis and weren't suffering from any form of 'sexual repression'.

I read Dr Targey's article in the Mail yesterday, and I just laughed out loud. It was so abysmally poor, he is a shameless self-promoter, and will just say what the Establishment wants to hear to get ahead. Any Muslims here ever hear an Imam talk about white girls negatively? Any Muslims here ever heard an Imam even talk about sex?!?! No. I have been going to mosque for the better part of 20 years and never heard the sentiments discussed in that article mentioned by a scholar. And Dr Targey is implying these scumbags even attend mosque. What an idiot. I bet he can't name a single Imam that has said any of the things he says in that article. If he can, then he's complicit in all of this for not alerting the authorities. He is a brazen liar.

Are these people just 'targeting white girls'? I would argue that they target anything vulnerable with a vagina. There have been cases of these gangs raping Asian girls too. I recall Sheikh Ibrahim Mogra writing that Asian girls would be less likely to report any abuse because of the increased stigma associated with being raped in that particular culture. What no-one else is addressing is that Pakistanis are a close knit community. They all know each other. My wife is half-Pakistani and her dad seems to be related somehow or other to 70% of Bradford. If word had got out that a Pakistani man had raped a Pakistani girl, then that man would almost definitely find himself dismembered by the girl's brothers, uncles, cousins etc. I'm sure you've all heard the expression 'don't s*** where you eat'. That's why it may seem that they are targeting white girls specifically whereas in reality it is merely a logistical issue.

It's such a dumbass argument to say 'well, the Prophet's wife was a child, so child rape is permitted by Islam'. Utter nonsense. First of all, none of these men give a damn about religious teaching, so why would they give a damn about the Prophet's behaviour? Secondly, Aisha is considered by just about every Muslim to have been post-pubescent when she married the Prophet, so how does that legitimise sex with a child?

Funny, how when the papers show you the mug shots of 'Muslim terrorists', they're always beardy, stern looking men with hats and robes etc. And the supposed 'Muslim paedophiles' look nothing more than chavs. Why has no-one made this observation? If Islam encouraged paedophila, wouldn't we be seeing a lot of beardy, robed guys in these grooming gangs?

The bottom line is these people are nothing more than drug dealing, criminal scum. Islam is against any sexual activity outside marriage. Religion is a red herring here folks. Try to look at the story from a different angle.

Eb1234

I have read this entire discussion, and frankly, I'm disappointed at the quality of debate here. I myself am a practicing Muslim, and I'm disgusted by the existence of these gangs (as any sane person should be) and annoyed at the way the media cover it.

I think it's fair to say that these scumbags had a Muslim background. By that, I mean someone in their family would have practiced Islam at some point. That does NOT make them Muslims. It's interesting, religious background only becomes an issue in the media when someone with a Muslim background commits a crime. If religious background were mentioned in EVERY news article, we'd be seeing expressions like 'Christian rapist' or 'Atheist abuser' much more frequently (as it is, we don't see that at all). What I'm trying to say is that these people are definitely NOT practicing Muslims.

Poor girls, to think they weren't even believed by the Police or by Social services good riddance to bad rubbish.