No such thing as a Full-time degree course in the UK

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The numbers involved are tiny, although the propaganda is substantial. Last year it was suggested that the numbers studying abroad in the USA would "soar" because of the increase in tuition fees.

Well, it did soar from 8947 to 9186. That compares with over 1.7 million full time students in the UK.

How many of those 9186 are on athletic scholarships?

It would be interesting to see in both USA and the UK what proportion of those students are from overseas (I include Europe in this). My guess is that the figures for the UK could be approaching 50%, at least far more than the USA, simply because our universities have been falling over themselves to attract overseas students for the past 20 odd years.

Reply 21

BrainDrain

Hi sultony, I raised this issue a few weeks ago on the York firmers forum after reading this article http://www.chilliplum.com/04df10f8-0578-466d-a81e-e8671647d9bb/RSS, and like you received more negative than positive responses. I was beginning to think I was alone in being concerned about the poor value for money some courses appear to offer,...{ the one of interest to me being history at York, has the lowest contact time of two hours per week} , but there was another article this week by Which affirming 30% of students are unhappy or concerned with the lack of contact time and consider they are getting poor value for money, so maybe its just guys on here that aren't too bothered.

Reply 22

JC.

No point bitching about the fees.
I see it as a way of buying yourself better career prospects.

Of course, if you'd prefer not to pay up you could always flip burgers or wash cars or something. I'm sure that'll pay well...

Reply 23

3 Phase Duck

Well I guess that would depend on the degree you do. I'm in 5 days a week, seems pretty full time to me.

Reply 24

BrainDrain

Original post by JC.

With the time left after attending lectures for a whole two hours a week, I guess there will be lots of opportunity to flip burgers, wash cars and something, but that's not really what I was expecting for my £9000.00 a year, but maybe some guys know everything already and don't require much by way of tuition.

Reply 25

JC.

Original post by BrainDrain

Maybe, but broadly "knowing everything" means bugger all in the real world unless you've got the piece of paper to back it up.

Reply 26

myblueheaven339

Original post by 3 Phase Duck

Well I guess that would depend on the degree you do. I'm in 5 days a week, seems pretty full time to me.

I agree. I only had 20 hours a week in my first year but by my third year with a combination of lectures and lab work I was probably doing 50 hours a week.

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Reply 27

ChemistBoy

Original post by BrainDrain

To be honest this is what happens when people start comparing university education with commercial training and doing simplistic back of the beer-mat calculations on cost per hour, etc. It's completely pointless because it completely misses the point.

Courses with low contact time are generally those that I would class as 'directed self study', e.g. the arts. There courses where there is little in the way of need regarding development of technical skill (which is contact hours hungry) and more in the way of direction and feedback on how to conduct individual research in preparation for a further academic study at postgraduate level.

In subjects such as history or english I would argue that this ability to be able to 'look after yourself' is critical to a students future, both inside and outside academia and is some that should be valued very highly. Certainly if I was in the market for an English graduate I'd be much more interested in someone who got good marks in a degree course where they had to get out and develop their writing and research abilities relatively independently rather than one where they had just spend their time what would be glorified school lessons.

I'm afraid that the majority of criticisms that come in terms of hours counting are simply 'cost of everything, value of nothing' arguments that have no real basis. I'd be much more interested in the real problems in HE of maintaining academic rigour and the pressure applied to academics to mark 'up' students, especially foreign full-fee paying ones.

Reply 28

CEKTOP

Original post by sultony

With students sometimes only receiving 2.5 hrs contact tuition a week and only having to attend the equivalent of two days per week, it is not a full-time study mode. Yet students can pay £9000 per annum fees, so the first thing they do is look for part-time jobs for the other three days per week to help pay their fees. I would suggest that the universities are mis-selling their 'Full-time' courses and should therefore only charge 2/5ths of the fees. What is your experience?

God, you're so ignorant. The actual cost of your degree would often be much higher that the 9000 you pay, top medicine degrees can cost as much as 30000 p a. Guess who pays the extra thousands. Yes, the government, which would also provide you with an interest-free loan should you require one.

Perhaps you don't realise how much money it takes to run a university and that your average university actually operates at a loss.

Reply 29

CEKTOP

Original post by Americandream

Or the students could pay more and get a better higher education, but because most students don't have the money for that they just have I make do with what they are given...it's no wonder unemployment is rising.

More and more students now are going to universities outside if the UK and the US is one of the mor popular places uk students are going to at the moment.

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Top US universities are lavishly funded, compare the amount of funding Oxford/Cambridge receive with the amount Harvard/Stanford do and you will see an ocean of disparity. Still, many UK institutions maintain their status despite a clear lack of funding and that's definitely an achievement.

Reply 30

Bronco2012

Original post by ChemistBoy

Yes, of course contact time is the only study that students are (or should) be doing, so of course this is a balanced and fair assessment of the situation.

:rolleyes:

For God Sake... :mad:

Generally the amount of effort you put in will correlate with the level of success in your degree. If you want to get a first on a low contact hours course, you aren't going to do it by only spending 14 hours a week in the library, that's for sure.

ONLY 14 hours? ONLY? I'm spotting a wee problem here :tongue:

Reply 31

pandabird

I have 6 hours of contact a week, the rest of the time involves independent reading.
You cant really expect lecturers to teach you everything at the breadth and depth required at degree level. Their job is to teach you the foundations, you then go away and work independently. It's difficult getting used to, I haven't accomplished much of the independent reading at all this year, but I'll learn for next time..

Reply 32

username1002982

Original post by nulli tertius

Wait, how does that make any sense? Moving to the US because of high fees in the UK when the fees in the US are higher?

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Reply 33

nulli tertius

Original post by Sheldor

Wait, how does that make any sense? Moving to the US because of high fees in the UK when the fees in the US are higher?

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It is a bit like buying furniture at DFS. No-one ever pays the pre-sale price.

Reply 34

Smaug123

Original post by nulli tertius

It is a bit like buying furniture at DFS. No-one ever pays the pre-sale price.

PRSOM
(Just to add another voice against the OP's hypothesis, I am studying maths and I am certainly getting £9000 worth of tuition: 2hrs of supervisions a week, and 16hrs of lectures, with about six hours a day of extra work.)

Reply 35

CEKTOP

Original post by nulli tertius

It is a bit like buying furniture at DFS. No-one ever pays the pre-sale price.

Actually quite a lot of people pay the full price, definitely over a half, especially if they're not absolutely brilliant (~~or a URM, because left-wingers that dominate the academia love to play the **** the white man game~~) but still want to get into a top university.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 36

nulli tertius

Original post by CEKTOP

Perhaps slightly unrepresentative but only 30% of Harvard students receive no financial aid.

Reply 37

CEKTOP

Original post by nulli tertius

Perhaps slightly unrepresentative but only 30% of Harvard students receive no financial aid.

Not every institution has an opportunity to receive $30bn in endowment annually.

Reply 38

sultony

Original post by CEKTOP

Before 1998 students received maintenance grants for their studies and staff were paid by the local county councils. From 1998 rising costs were estimated due to the expansion of HE in terms of student numbers and new buildings. The way of paying for this was to introduce from 1998 tuition fees of £1000 per annum combined with setting up the Student Loans Company to replace the maintenance grant. Staff were then on the payroll of their university hence another reason for introducing fees. The country went from a time when it was difficult and competitive to get into university to a situation of mass higher education whereby entry standards dropped (well they had to if the government was to achieve the level of income from student fees) to allow more students in who were not really university material, combined with the big push to increase overseas students who had to pay more than UK students.(now outside the European Union).

Reply 39

nulli tertius

Original post by sultony

This is not right about staffing.

Pre-1992 universities always employed their own staff. The polytechnics originally had local authority staff but the polytechnics obtained their independence from local authorities some time in the 1980s prior to becoming universities in 1992. Their staff continued to be paid on a differential and lower pay scale into the mid 2000s. The desire to obtain the universities pay scale is always seen as one of the main drivers in the decision to abandon the polytechnic name. The idea of lack of esteem is to a large degree the re-invention of history. The other post-1992s had a variety of different origins, some local authority and some not.