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Private schools should be banned!
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Original post by TheGuy117
Like closing private schools in Finland dragged them down?...Oh wait, schools got better.
Did they get better solely because private schools closed down? Or did they get better despite the closure of private schools?
Original post by Millerman
Are the actual gcse/A-level exams the same difficulty? And are the exam conditions in both provate and state schools the same? If so surely it's completely fair.
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The exams are set by the exam boards, which are used by both state and independent schools (OCR, AQA, Edexcel, etc). As I said before, the conditions are exactly the same; everything is determined by the exam board, not the school.
Original post by Millerman
Yes, it was just some people I know said that in some private schools the subject teacher would actually be in the exam and so could off help. T be honest I didn't think that would happen but w
Just wanted confirmation.
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Just wanted confirmation.
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I have had teachers walking around the exam hall in both types of school, but they certainly aren't allowed to help in either. As I said above, the conditions for the exam are decided by the board, so all schools have to stick to the same rules.
Original post by tazarooni89
Did they get better solely because private schools closed down? Or did they get better despite the closure of private schools?
No. Closure of private schools means that everyone is in the same boat, and equality of opportunity now is available to all, rather than limited to those who are just poncy products of their pushy parents and comfortable lifestyles.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by JamesTheCool
No. Closure of private schools means that everyone is in the same boat, and equality of opportunity now is available to all, rather than limited to those who are just poncy products of their pushy parents and comfortable lifestyles.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
I'm not really sure how this answers the question I asked...
Original post by tazarooni89
I'm not really sure how this answers the question I asked...
Well you didn't really ask me the question, so I didn't feel quite as compelled to answer it. Even if that was the case, I wouldn't answer it on the basis that it's a needless question with a pro-establishment slant, similar to a lot of guff I read on this website by thumbsucking nonses who take education a bit too seriously. I just wanted to point you in the right direction and say what needs to be said (and this applies to the average TSR user, particularly ones on this thread).
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by JamesTheCool
Well you didn't really ask me the question, so I didn't feel quite as compelled to answer it.
I see. Perhaps there was no need to quote it then, and you could have just made your post separately. Quoting my post makes me think that what you're writing is supposed to be some kind of response to what I have written.
I didn't post the question hoping to find out anybody's opinion on whether private schools should be banned or not. Another poster suggested that education improved in Finland when private schools were closed. I merely wondered whether or not it could be shown that there was a causal link between them (and if not, what the relevance of this suggestion is supposed to be).
Even if that was the case, I wouldn't answer it on the basis that it's a needless question with a pro-establishment slant, similar to a lot of guff I read on this website by thumbsucking nonses who take education a bit too seriously. I just wanted to point you in the right direction and say what needs to be said (and this applies to the average TSR user, particularly ones on this thread).
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about...
Original post by JamesTheCool
What on earth do you mean 'people obviously seem to enjoy going there?' Says who? Your attitude is that those from lower economic backgrounds are also lower forms of human, and that they don't deserve a better education than you, because they are inferior to you, whereas the privileged people are 'special' breeds, because they're superior to the rest of us in every possible way. Maybe your thoughts aren't as black and white as that, but that's fundamentally it, if you look deep into the recesses of your soul. You know, public schools implicitly brainwash their pupils to think this way, and you're a classic deluded victim of the such exploits of stupidity and ignorance. You should feel embarrassed...
Look, I want you to understand, a preference is something you want. It's a first choice. I can't believe I have to spell this out, especially to someone who's privately educated. Hypothetically, many people would like to go to public school, but there's one problem: they can't afford it! Nobody 'prefers' going to a state school, when better schools exist. Jesus...
But since you go to public school, your opinion must be important than mine...
Look, I want you to understand, a preference is something you want. It's a first choice. I can't believe I have to spell this out, especially to someone who's privately educated. Hypothetically, many people would like to go to public school, but there's one problem: they can't afford it! Nobody 'prefers' going to a state school, when better schools exist. Jesus...
But since you go to public school, your opinion must be important than mine...
I fail to see how private schools brainwash pupils into thinking they're above others...considering all the scholarship and bursary kids, we'd have to indoctrinate them into...thinking they're better than themselves? Anyway, this is a pretty BS view, especially if you haven't been to one.
Original post by GoodDay
Have you ever thought that maybe its the people being at the top that causing others to be pushed down?
And also, I don't think comps aren't as good as private schools just for the fun of it. I would make a guess what it might be but my limited education means I have no idea (but I think it might be money...)
And also, I don't think comps aren't as good as private schools just for the fun of it. I would make a guess what it might be but my limited education means I have no idea (but I think it might be money...)
How does there being private schools mean state schools can't fee better/provide a good education? Good education isn't a limited or restricted resource like one may be able to argue with some having more food than others, for example.
Original post by JamesTheCool
No. Closure of private schools means that everyone is in the same boat, and equality of opportunity now is available to all, rather than limited to those who are just poncy products of their pushy parents and comfortable lifestyles.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
That still doesn't tell us why closing down private schools improves state schools? Obviously it improves state schools relatively, but how is it the reason for Finland's better results?
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Original post by Thriftworks
Well he can't there is no evidence.
However, there is evidence to show that, on average, private students attain higher standards of education.
As to why is debatable I personally put it down to personal incentives to get the most out of school when you are paying for iit.
Also on behalf the staff they can be dismissed and hired much easier allowing private schools to maintain a better quality of staff, this is helped by private vested interests pushing headteachers to make schools attain high standards in order to keep their school competitive and keep profit rolling in.
However, there is evidence to show that, on average, private students attain higher standards of education.
As to why is debatable I personally put it down to personal incentives to get the most out of school when you are paying for iit.
Also on behalf the staff they can be dismissed and hired much easier allowing private schools to maintain a better quality of staff, this is helped by private vested interests pushing headteachers to make schools attain high standards in order to keep their school competitive and keep profit rolling in.
I don't dispute that either of those factors may cause private schools to achieve more. What I do dispute is the private school middle class myth that working class state school students don't work as hard and are somehow inferior.
Original post by Johnathon16
I don't dispute that either of those factors may cause private schools to achieve more. What I do dispute is the private school middle class myth that working class state school students don't work as hard and are somehow inferior.
Why put that point to me? Read my first line
Original post by JamesTheCool
No. Closure of private schools means that everyone is in the same boat, and equality of opportunity now is available to all, rather than limited to those who are just poncy products of their pushy parents and comfortable lifestyles.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
Of course, you're a TSR member so you're likely to disagree.
individual and parental aspiration is not directly linked to income and 'poncy , comfortable lifestyles' ...
this is the logic behind old style comprehensive education with mixed ability classes and teaching the 'bog standard' comp run by unimaginative, socialist politically dogmatic sandal wearing guardian reading , unionised to the point of combative lefties
interestingly uder GM and even now under acadamies and with the 'gifted and talented' stuff this is not what is being delivered in the majority of State schools
people seem to completely ignore the smaller average class sizes at KS3 and 4 in private school ,
another galloping presumption by a variety of posters of all backgrounds is that every private school achieves the results of the top of the line 'public schools' and that ever state school is a Sink Estate ex SecMod with a staff culture hostile to innovation .
so many of the points being raised are ridiculous. i go to a private school, no im not from an immensely wealthy background; i am fortunate enough to have a full scholarship, and 1 in 5 at my school receive some kind of financial assistance. previous academic merit is hugely important, as entry to these schools often requires several tests and an interview before an offer. therefore the average pupil from a private school may well perform better, but certainly not because of their parents' pockets.
Original post by Johnathon16
I don't dispute that either of those factors may cause private schools to achieve more. What I do dispute is the private school middle class myth that working class state school students don't work as hard and are somehow inferior.
I'm interested to know from whom and how often you've seen this myth from private school students?
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Original post by Sheldor
I'm interested to know from whom and how often you've seen this myth from private school students?
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On the page before this in which somebody directly said 'private school students work harder'
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I went to private school for 7 years (I'm not from a well-off background, but I and my parents worked hard to find bursaries and funding for both me and my brother), obviously that will cloud my opinion somewhat but I don't see how banning some of the best schools in the country will do anything but harm the country as a whole.
Surely it would be more constructive to learn how and why students who go to private school achieve higher grades than those that don't. I'd probably put forward that there is a different attitude to learning at private schools in my experience, I don't know why but my freinds who went to state schools didn't get into the routine of how exams work, how to study effectively and other such things.
It might also have something to do with the fact that a number of private schools operate a policy of expelling people (for very petty reasons) 2 or 3 weeks before exams if they think they are going to fail.
Surely it would be more constructive to learn how and why students who go to private school achieve higher grades than those that don't. I'd probably put forward that there is a different attitude to learning at private schools in my experience, I don't know why but my freinds who went to state schools didn't get into the routine of how exams work, how to study effectively and other such things.
It might also have something to do with the fact that a number of private schools operate a policy of expelling people (for very petty reasons) 2 or 3 weeks before exams if they think they are going to fail.
you clearly are just grouping all privet school people together i went to a state primary school i am dyslexic and so i wasnt doing great there was no extra help for me they didnt care the class sizes were to big to contol every one in it and they didnt care if people were listening or not the attitude is just that they dont care- now im not saying that for every class and every school
so my parents chose to send me to a privet school- we are not rich we dont really have the money to afford it but we give up family holidays and a nice cofortable style of living to manage this so i can get the extra help i needed as i was failing at everything at GCSE i managed 10
so my parents chose to send me to a privet school- we are not rich we dont really have the money to afford it but we give up family holidays and a nice cofortable style of living to manage this so i can get the extra help i needed as i was failing at everything at GCSE i managed 10
Original post by Johnathon16
On the page before this in which somebody directly said 'private school students work harder'
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So...from one person...on the internet? I've seen state school pupils here perpetuate the stereotypical "chav" image, but that doesn't form my opinion on them all. For one thing, this is the internet-people exaggerate, make things up, are taken out of context etc. Also, you get horrible/rude/insertstatementhere people in every school, so you can't make an opinion on one person.
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Original post by TheGuy117
Firstly, I realise that this thread has been done before, however I believe the Op was incoherent in his argument and didn't even put a reasonably strong argument forward, instead, he just rambled. So here is my concise argument, with just 2 points.
Equality
Quite an obvious place to start is the argument that if by removing wealth as a factor of a child's academic success, the educational system and future generations of society as a whole would be a lot more equal.
Just look at where the top universities are in terms of proportions of students from private school - at the top end.
http://www.studentbeans.com/student-money/a/the-posh-university-league2169.html
Now look at this, studies have found there is a bias in the selection process.
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/top-universities-really-are-biased-in-favour-of-private-school-pupils-8549126.html
More effective
Finland went from having a mediocre education system, to the best in the world, how? They banned private schools and made education equal for all
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/are-finnish-schools-the-best-in-the-world-2289083.html
If you look at other top countries for education, you will find they all have a similar ethos, while "Great" Britain sits in a mediocre 31st place.
I truly believe an education system where equality rules would greatly improve standards for the whole country. Since this is an "Educational Debate", what are your thoughts on this?
Equality
Quite an obvious place to start is the argument that if by removing wealth as a factor of a child's academic success, the educational system and future generations of society as a whole would be a lot more equal.
Just look at where the top universities are in terms of proportions of students from private school - at the top end.
http://www.studentbeans.com/student-money/a/the-posh-university-league2169.html
Now look at this, studies have found there is a bias in the selection process.
http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/top-universities-really-are-biased-in-favour-of-private-school-pupils-8549126.html
More effective
Finland went from having a mediocre education system, to the best in the world, how? They banned private schools and made education equal for all
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/are-finnish-schools-the-best-in-the-world-2289083.html
If you look at other top countries for education, you will find they all have a similar ethos, while "Great" Britain sits in a mediocre 31st place.
I truly believe an education system where equality rules would greatly improve standards for the whole country. Since this is an "Educational Debate", what are your thoughts on this?
Do you seriously believe Finland is the best for education in the world? Such bull! Asian countries have much better systems and higher standards in Education than Finland.
It is not like everyone is racing to get a place at Finnish schools or universities.
Original post by ssxx
Do you seriously believe Finland is the best for education in the world? Such bull! Asian countries have much better systems and higher standards in Education than Finland.
It is not like everyone is racing to get a place at Finnish schools or universities.
It is not like everyone is racing to get a place at Finnish schools or universities.
Yes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
Please gets your facts right, it depends how it is measured.
Finnish schools are not more advanced in maths and science standards than some of the Asian countries.
Finnish people do not excel in maths and science in the world.
Have you seen the standards of the Chinese or the japs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6589301.stm
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by ssxx
Please gets your facts right, it depends how it is measured.
Finnish schools are not more advanced in maths and science standards than some of the Asian countries.
Finnish people do not excel in maths and science in the world.
Have you seen the standards of the Chinese or the japs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6589301.stm
Please gets your facts right, it depends how it is measured.
Finnish schools are not more advanced in maths and science standards than some of the Asian countries.
Finnish people do not excel in maths and science in the world.
Have you seen the standards of the Chinese or the japs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6589301.stm
If education is measured by the world education index I have no how it is measured.
You seem to be blinded by the notion that Asian students stereotypical excel at maths, I must ask you for some stats.
For maths and science, Finland is second only to South Korea, followed swiftly by mainly western countries. Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading
For maths, Finland lags only Hong Kong. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923110.html
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