Doctor Who - Discussion Thread III (no untagged future spoilers)

Yeah, there were loads of references to the fact that it wasn't 'real' River - it was the River that died in the Library and was saved to CAL. There was the stuff about River being dead, about the Doctor having made a backup, and so on.

We didn't actually see it in the mini-sode, but we saw the Doctor and River about to head there. It's hard to explain, you should just watch it! It was in 'Last Night'.

There's only one thing that bugs me, the prophecy states "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

I somewhat agree that John Hurt is the 9th Doctor, however, that would make Matt Smith's Doctor the 12th making the prophecy null and void.
Unless The Doctor made the prophecy himself because he doesn't the 9th version of himself to be the Doctor at all. =l

Aha, I must have missed it then - I was too busy at the beginning trying to explain to my boyfriend who River was (he's only been watching since the snowmen at Christmas! )

I'll google it

That prophecy has been bugging me too, but for a different reason. What was all that 'when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer' stuff about? I mean, the creature that answered the question was not living, it was the dead River, but the Doctor did fail to answer! And why could he not speak falsely? Was any of this explained at all and did I just miss it?

Just caught the last couple of minutes again.

Leaning more and more to the '9th incarnation' theory. Hurt is a great actor, and when he turns at the end of the episode he looks distressed/sad/traumatised rather than 'bad'.

Someone I know has suggested that the Doctor before Hartnell was a bit of a tyrant, and Hurt is the last embodiment of this man. The Doctor, first embodies in Hartnell, then travels the galaxy to remedy all the wrong he did.

But I'm not sure I buy this. 6 months is a long time to wait!

For me, most of Series 6 and most of Series 7 I found quite bad. However, after "The Crimson Horror" I actually started to like it again, I don't know why.

Anyway, I thought the finale was incredible, and by the end I was actually really excited about the Anniversary special (as beforehand I was thinking of ways that Moffat could ruin David Tennant's Doctor for me).

I was surprised that Moffat didn't provide an anti-climax to the arch including the question and Trenzalore stuff, which I'm happy about, and the explanation and reasoning behind it was coherent and simple enough to get, while still leaving the audience to think about what happened etc.

I think I saw, in the huge TARDIS tomb, the crack in the window (that the Doctor caused early in the episode). Surely this means that for every other episode of Doctor Who in the future the TARDIS has to have a crack in the window?

Hopefully it will be worth it, although, I REALLY wanted Jack to come back! DX
No Torchwood any more and he hasn't appeared in AGES!

I thought Torchwood was pretty awful.

I mean the biggest problem that show had was Jack was immortal, but apart from that it felt like scooby doo with guns and sex. A teenage boys idea of maturity.

After the mess that was miracle day I would be perfectly happy if they never made another torch wood story or Jack never had another Doctor Who appearance.

There's only one thing that bugs me, the prophecy states "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

I somewhat agree that John Hurt is the 9th Doctor, however, that would make Matt Smith's Doctor the 12th making the prophecy null and void.
Unless The Doctor made the prophecy himself because he doesn't the 9th version of himself to be the Doctor at all. =l

As in... Screen episodes with him as the Valeyard? I don't think I'd like that.

And just re-watched the final scene there: I don't think the Hurt Doctor revealed his name - I agree with the interpretation that the Hurt Doctor did harm (hence breaking the promise of the Doctor; primum non nocere) - perhaps he's the one who ended the Time War (I'm hoping this; I'd love to hear more about what went down), perhaps it's something else we haven't heard of yet.

"He is my secret." - implies that it was something done in the Doctor's past, they also made a big deal of Eleven being the 11th Doctor in the dialogue, I think this gives the speculation about the Hurt Doctor's identity some weight.
"What I did, I did without choice [this is how Nine and Ten justified the bispecial genocide] ... In the name of peace, and sanity [this one doesn't fit the Time War for me. It doesn't seem like the event was about bringing peace - what was there left to bring peace to when both sides perished? However, I can see how it can be interpreted as applying to the Time War - bringing peace to the rest of the universe, who no longer had to face certain destruction]."
"But not in the name of the Doctor." - hence justifying Nine, Ten and Eleven feeling they are those respective numbers; the actions were so atrocious that he couldn't even be called the Doctor - he wasn't the Doctor. Not in their eyes.

Things that are bugging me about this episode:

- The origin of "run you clever boy and remember" makes no sense at all. It was original Clara's wifi password, but that doesn't explain why she decided to say it before walking into the time stream.

-Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?

- The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.

Things that are bugging me about this episode:

- The origin of "run you clever boy and remember" makes no sense at all. It was original Clara's wifi password, but that doesn't explain why she decided to say it before walking into the time stream.
- Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?
- The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.

Clara said it when walking into the time stream because she thought she was going to die - she wanted the Doctor to run, to save himself, and she wanted him to remember her. Hence, she found the wifi mnemonic fitting. The fact she finds the phrase so significant also explains its earlier use in her other incarnation.
Soufflé girl says it because she's a fragment (i.e. after walking into the time stream), so still remembers it. Same with Victorian London.

I can't say much about your latter 2 points, but for the first one:

Before she walked into the time stream, Clara began to remember the times she saved the Doctor in his timeline - she specifically remembered the Asylum of the Daleks when she said "run you clever boy, and remember". Like in the Asylum episode, she wanted the Doctor to live on and remember her.

The Doctor told her why he was ignoring her! A very heartstring tugging reason. <3

It's easily explained, though. River was wrong! Since The Doctor was always ignoring River, it makes sense that she thinks that he couldn't really see or hear her - hence why she thought she was only mentally linked with Clara.

This is the first thing that came to mind for me. I loved everything about The Doctor's Wife and the Doctor/TARDIS relationship and want that to be preserved in my little fangirl heart forever, so I rationalised it away. Sexy said that she left herself unlocked (not that she left her doors open) so that she could steal the Doctor. The Doctor walks in - sees the doors open, so naturally goes to steal the opened one. Clara steps in to make sure he takes the correct TARDIS (who's unlocked, but the doors are closed). She even mentions the navigation system being a bit naff (reinforcing the TARDIS' personality - not always taking him where he wanted to go (hence it being dubbed malfunctional) but taking him where he needed to go), bringing it all full circle.

And hell, being able to make it look like JLC is talking to William Hartnell is cool as ****.