Medicine Summer Discussion Series - Is work experience really worthwhile?

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I think US schools might consider volunteering etc. Just like how being good at sports is also seen as important and can help you get in for subjects that have no bearing whatsoever.

My french friend said the drop out rates are quite high. Anecdotal though.

He also told me about the job allocation system. Again, purely anecdotal but what wikipedia says doesn't seem to go agains this...They don't have foundation jobs or anything - this is for speciality posting lasting in theory the rest of your life: Apparently they do a national exam instead of finals. Based on this, you are given a rank in the country out of like 6,000. Then, on a particular day you go to a stadium in Paris and they call up guy no'1 and he comes up on stage and reads into the microphone his chosen speciality and location. That position is ticked off the list. Then guy no'2, etc etc all the way down to 6000. No other criteria are considered. Sounds. Mental. I'd love to see if this is verifiably true!

Bloody hell... That sounds bizarre! Poor 6000th guy who's been waiting hours for everyone to know he ranked last!

Reply 41

gozatron

Original post by nexttime

Apparently the top 1000 or so all choose Paris, and rural areas are invariably left with the very bottom of the pile, which doesn't sound like it provides optimal care.

What they really need is some randomising factor. Some test or something that would be completely pointless other than to randomise applications so that the good doctors don't all end up in the capital. What's the French for 'Situational Judgement Test'? :tongue:

Go full wack and let the worst performing 'trusts(?)' themselves select which doctors they want from the top pile!

Reply 42

Smushy

My work experience was with the neurologist that treats my mother, so it really helped me on a personal level. I think it allowed me to better understand my mum.
The workexperience I did in a hospital was in the 'bloc opératoire' where the surgeries happen and I thought it was really interesting, especially because I was allowed to go to all the operating rooms and witness the procedures! I got to see a cesarian birth :smile:

I also did workexperience at the retirement home where my grandfather died, and it was really tough because of that feeling of hopelessness. It seemed that whatever effort I did, whatever effort the nurses did it fell into a black pit of despair and memory loss. The patients only remembered how miserable they were to be away from home :frown:

I had a difficult experience with an older lady with whom I'd gotten really close, because she suddenly had the delusion that she was head nurse and when I could't fulfil her request because I had other duties she completely vituperated me, and unfortunately for me, she had no amnesia so she hated me for the rest of my work experience. Another woman I was close to was incredibly sweet, and she seemed very alert, but after a few days I realised our conversations were always the same. She'd forget we'd said it all before :frown:

It was very interesting to talk to the nurses!
At the time, I didn't think I was learning much. It all seemed so 'normal' but later on when I had to reflect on my experiences because my school requires us to write a report and have it graded, I realised how much I'd seen and learnt :smile:

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 43

Hippokrates

Original post by Ava-

This is a bit off-topic, but is the general consensus that Radiography w/e is a bit pointless?
I've got myself some this summer (before joining college this September.)

Should I still strive to get much more in different departments?

It's quite interesting when they explain the problems on the scan, it's just the actual job I found boring.

Reply 44

carcinoma

Original post by nexttime

What they really need is some randomising factor. Some test or something that would be completely pointless other than to randomise applications so that the good doctors don't all end up in the capital. What's the French for 'Situational Judgement Test'? :tongue:

But if most people scored between 36-42 how exactly is it randomising?

It still allows those with the highest academic scores to score highest overall.

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(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 45

nexttime

Original post by carcinoma

But if most people scored between 36-42 how exactly is it randomising?

It still allows those with the highest academic scores to score highest overall.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Six points of randomisation is a lot. Its more than having an additional degree. Equivalent to being 6 deciles higher.

Reply 46

carcinoma

Original post by nexttime

Six points of randomisation is a lot. Its more than having an additional degree. Equivalent to being 6 deciles higher.

Fair! I actually just looked and it turns out for the 2013 cycle, "68.2% of applicants achieved between 36.9 and 44.7 points and 88% of applicants achieved between 35.0 and 45.0 points."

So it turns out to be 7.8-10 point randomisation.

Reply 47

nexttime

Original post by carcinoma

Substantial!

I have to say though, as someone who is currently 10th decile and someone who has historically done well at these kinds of tests, i'm not complaining :tongue:

Reply 48

carcinoma

Original post by nexttime

Substantial!

I have to say though, as someone who is currently 10th decile and someone who has historically done well at these kinds of tests, i'm not complaining :tongue:

Im pretty happy as well considering my medical school is practically famous for the amount of curriculum time they put into the exact issues the SJT tests for.

Reply 49

Helenia

Does anyone know if hospitals get any kind of funding for taking work experience/shadowing students?

It's all very well saying that there should be national schemes for work exp which every hospital has to take part in, or whatever, but if they're getting no money for it, and some minor costs (admin time, possibly a small extra amount of medical staff time), there's not much incentive for them to make it easy.

Reply 50

AtomicMan

Original post by Helenia

I know that Imperial ask you to pay I think ~£20 as an 'admin fee' for applying for work experience in any of it's trusts.

Reply 51

nexttime

Original post by Helenia

Yeah - Oxford too they make the student cover an admin fee.

I think there are enough friendly doctors who wouldn't mind showing a kid around that staff time/pay isn't an issue.

Incentive comes from doctors passionate about equality of opportunity in medicine.

Reply 52

crazylemon

Original post by nexttime

But that somewhat loads the game.

I care about equal opportunities but not enough to on a regular basis be expected to go home later because I have spent half an hour of my time with work experience students.

Maybe that just shows my character and I am not 'passionate' enough about such things, but hey, I have things I want to do for me too!

Reply 53

nexttime

Original post by crazylemon

By 'incentive comes from passion...' i meant in setting it up, which presumedly would require time and effort. In terms of the day to day stuff, the work experience students i've seen haven't been that much of a burden to the medical teams. The doctors that paid attention to them seemed actively pleased to talk about what they were doing. My experience is limited though - maybe that isn't usually the case (?)

But that kind of misses the point anyway. If the supply of placements is inherently limited, then how can work experience play a part in medical admissions? Some people will miss out through no fault of their own. Setting up the formal process would at least make the allocations random, which would ensure we get a better cross-section of society that the current 'who you know' system that seems to be in place at many hospitals.

Reply 54

crazylemon

Original post by nexttime

Personal experience as one, it did take up quite a bit of time. But then I was one of the problem WE people who had got their via the back door. As for one I saw while on placement, she didn't get any attention at all. So it does vary.

I would prefer they just did away with factoring in work experience but I can't seem them wanting to give up an easy filter so I can see the appeal of the formal system. Would bloody help if universities made the admissions system less opaque. Also as far as I am aware most hospitals have a formal policy, just if you know people you can (wrongly) circumvent it. A formal system would have to be pretty ridged and Is am not sure how you would assess applications to one (just random I suppose would be best, post CRB or whatever it is called these days)

Also on on the Randomise F1s point - I agree something that should be done. Trying to explain the benefits to some colleagues just made them recoil in horror though :tongue:

Interestingly they have dropped prizes as a point, so it might be they gradually makes the earnable points less and less.