Should religion be a protected characteristic?
Poll
Should most employers be able to discriminate based on religious convictions?
Should employers be able to discriminate based upon a person's religious convictions or beliefs (in ordinary, common, non-exceptional circumstances)?
Separately, is it morally similar for people to discriminate based upon religious conviction compared to discriminating based upon sexuality or gender or race?
Separately, is it morally similar for people to discriminate based upon religious conviction compared to discriminating based upon sexuality or gender or race?
(edited 10 years ago)
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Yes.
No.
No.
To move this debate along, I'll have a final try... should employers be allowed to discriminate based on political beliefs?
Original post by eclectic_
Well done for asking the right questions (in as non-condescending a way as possible)
Political beliefs, yes... but as for religion, I genuinely don't have an answer. I suppose it varies from case to case.
Political beliefs, yes... but as for religion, I genuinely don't have an answer. I suppose it varies from case to case.
I'm interested in why people treat political convictions separately from religious convictions in employment law.
Original post by Melancholy
I'm interested in why people treat political convictions separately from religious convictions in employment law.
Political beliefs are generally a choice. Religion is generally not, and is often the result of childhood indoctrination (if I can possibly say that without sounding like a judgemental atheist, because I really have no interest in attacking religious people).
(edited 10 years ago)
I don't think employers should be able to discriminate on either, unless it's a requirement (e.g. faith group/political party) then I don't see why it's of any concern. And yes I do think it's on equal moral ground as discrimination based on race/gender, there's the whole "religion is a choice" but I don't think it's as simple as that. I think unlawful termination should extend to firing on any non-relevant factors but I don't know, maybe there's a good reason why that can't work logistically.
The thing is though, that to a certain extent you pick your religion and it's rules/customs to follow. If you belong to a religion that thinks gay people are the scum of the earth and should be stoned, why should a gay shop keeper etc serve you if they know that is your opinion? And if the homophobic person is the shopkeeper in this situation, then to be honest, they have no logical reason to be homophobic and discriminate against gays. The only reason religion hates gays is that if its followers are gay then the population doesn't grow as much. If they marry in fear of being stoned and have children, then thats one step closer to global domination. And in this somewhat civilised day in age, that is a stupid reason to hate gays.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age. So to discriminate against any of these is just plain stupid and ignorant.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age. So to discriminate against any of these is just plain stupid and ignorant.
(edited 10 years ago)
Ideologically: yes, there is no reason religion should be put on a pedestal, and if an employer doesn't want to employ someone who believes in creationism (as an extreme example) they shouldn't have to. Nor, I might add, should a Muslim have to employ an Atheist. You can't have one without accepting the other.
In reality: people often define themselves largely through their religion - it is their core value, and we have endlessly seen how people will put it even before their own and their family's lives. This isn't just limited to fundamentalists (except the death part). I have Christian friends who won't even debate their religion - to attack Christianity is to attack them. The only way we can have a peaceful society - the only chance 'diversity' has of working - is to force people to set religion aside and interact in a normal way whilst keeping their beliefs to themselves, and accepting that other people think differently.
On the whole I have to go with the second argument. It's sad, but religion is too big a creator of tension and too raw in our history to be defeated so easily. For now at least, it can only be a protected characteristic.
Edit: On the other hand, I'm aware that treating it like a protected characteristic only makes it more of one. Perhaps treating it like a political belief would manage to water it down in people's minds? I have no idea.
In reality: people often define themselves largely through their religion - it is their core value, and we have endlessly seen how people will put it even before their own and their family's lives. This isn't just limited to fundamentalists (except the death part). I have Christian friends who won't even debate their religion - to attack Christianity is to attack them. The only way we can have a peaceful society - the only chance 'diversity' has of working - is to force people to set religion aside and interact in a normal way whilst keeping their beliefs to themselves, and accepting that other people think differently.
On the whole I have to go with the second argument. It's sad, but religion is too big a creator of tension and too raw in our history to be defeated so easily. For now at least, it can only be a protected characteristic.
Edit: On the other hand, I'm aware that treating it like a protected characteristic only makes it more of one. Perhaps treating it like a political belief would manage to water it down in people's minds? I have no idea.
(edited 10 years ago)
I believe you shouldn't discriminate on who someone is genetically; hence race, gender, etc are not to be discriminable
Religion is a choice; it reflects on your beliefs about many different things. If these are incongruent with the employer, they should have every right not to hire such a person (of course, so long as the conflict of beliefs is justifiable)
Edit: Ultimately, it may be that discrimination on the basis of religion is moot in the first place. Suppose the jobseeker has beliefs contrary to those of an employer. Would they really become an applicant in the first place?
Religion is a choice; it reflects on your beliefs about many different things. If these are incongruent with the employer, they should have every right not to hire such a person (of course, so long as the conflict of beliefs is justifiable)
Edit: Ultimately, it may be that discrimination on the basis of religion is moot in the first place. Suppose the jobseeker has beliefs contrary to those of an employer. Would they really become an applicant in the first place?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by TheMoho
It doesn't matter if it's their political beliefs, or race or religion or gender or whatever; as long it does not affect their performance and skill in their job, then it should be ignored. That's just what I generally think
I agree with this.
Original post by eclectic_
Political beliefs are generally a choice. Religion is generally not, and is often the result of childhood indoctrination (if I can possibly say that without sounding like a judgemental atheist, because I really have no interest in attacking religious people).
You probably sound like a judgemental atheist.
Original post by Juichiro
You probably sound like a judgemental atheist.
I'm really sorry if I do. 'Indoctrination' might have been a little harsh. But most religious people aren't raised atheistically.
Original post by anony.mouse
The thing is though, that to a certain extent you pick your religion and it's rules/customs to follow. If you belong to a religion that thinks gay people are the scum of the earth and should be stoned, why should a gay shop keeper etc serve you if they know that is your opinion? And if the homophobic person is the shopkeeper in this situation, then to be honest, they have no logical reason to be homophobic and discriminate against gays. The only reason religion hates gays is that if its followers are gay then the population doesn't grow as much. If they marry in fear of being stoned and have children, then thats one step closer to global domination. And in this somewhat civilised day in age, that is a stupid reason to hate gays.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age.
Original post by FireGarden
I believe you shouldn't discriminate on who someone is genetically; hence race, gender, etc are not to be discriminable
Religion is a choice; it reflects on your beliefs about many different things. If these are incongruent with the employer, they should have every right not to hire such a person (of course, so long as the conflict of beliefs is justifiable)
Edit: Ultimately, it may be that discrimination on the basis of religion is moot in the first place. Suppose the jobseeker has beliefs contrary to those of an employer. Would they really become an applicant in the first place?
Religion is a choice; it reflects on your beliefs about many different things. If these are incongruent with the employer, they should have every right not to hire such a person (of course, so long as the conflict of beliefs is justifiable)
Edit: Ultimately, it may be that discrimination on the basis of religion is moot in the first place. Suppose the jobseeker has beliefs contrary to those of an employer. Would they really become an applicant in the first place?
Agreed.
With your final point I think it really depends on the issue and how religious the person is.
For example some people/religions are against the ritual slaughter of animals. Therefore I doubt they would apply for a job at a kosher/hallal butchers/slaughter house. In the same way that Jew/Muslim wouldn't apply for a job at a butchers/slaughter house that dealth with non kosher/hallal meat. However if they're not oober strict and are desperate for a job, they might work as a waiter at a restaurant that doesn't use such meat/cooking arrangements. As long as they don't have to cook/eat it, then they might be able to deal with it.
Original post by anony.mouse
The thing is though, that to a certain extent you pick your religion and it's rules/customs to follow. If you belong to a religion that thinks gay people are the scum of the earth and should be stoned, why should a gay shop keeper etc serve you if they know that is your opinion? And if the homophobic person is the shopkeeper in this situation, then to be honest, they have no logical reason to be homophobic and discriminate against gays. The only reason religion hates gays is that if its followers are gay then the population doesn't grow as much. If they marry in fear of being stoned and have children, then thats one step closer to global domination. And in this somewhat civilised day in age, that is a stupid reason to hate gays.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age.
It's a lot harder to change your gender and you wouldn't be able to unless you were diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Which is also a long process and ireversible. You can dye your hair, but you can't help what colour it is as a child. And you can't change your sexuality, race or age.
Very good post
Original post by eclectic_
I'm really sorry if I do. 'Indoctrination' might have been a little harsh. But most religious people aren't raised atheistically.
I understand what you mean so no need to apologise.
Original post by Melancholy
To move this debate along, I'll have a final try... should employers be allowed to discriminate based on political beliefs?
I wouldn't think it's right to fire someone based on that factor, e.g. employees' posting on their Facebook page their beliefs (however wrong they may be).
However, employees should be able to employ who they like.
Original post by DaveSmith99
Very good post
Original post by Multitalented me
You make a good point
Thanks, I'm glad my first paragraph was clear and not to waffley as I'm not always very good at getting my point across in writing.
(edited 10 years ago)
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