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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Original post by MatureStudent36
You may complain about Blair, but as a Scottish born PM with a high proportion of Scottish ministers
You may complain about Blair, but as a Scottish born PM with a high proportion of Scottish ministers
That RACIST nonsense again so soon after it was debunked?
UK governments (mis)rule the UK as a whole and the Englishness, Scottishness, Welshness or Irishness of ministers makes no difference whatsoever.
They are not there to promote the interests of England, Scotland, Wales or N. Ireland respectively.
What did those "high proportion of Scottish ministers" do that benefitted Scotland at the expense of rUK?
Blair represented an English constituency at Westminster.
And the campaign for Scottish independence is to end Westminster (mis)rule over Scotland.
It is not to get rid of non-Scottish MSPs (English, French, Italian, Pakistani, Irish, Other?) from the Scottish parliament.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I want a fairer society, but for me and the majority of us who side with the better together campaign, a fairer society means looking after the poor, I'll and elderly but not penalising those who success.
I want a fairer society, but for me and the majority of us who side with the better together campaign, a fairer society means looking after the poor, I'll and elderly but not penalising those who success.
A fairer society has not arisen after 300 years of Westminster (mis)rule and there is almost zero possibility that it will arise in the next 600 years.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
Original post by Maths Tutor
A fairer society has not arisen after 300 years of Westminster (mis)rule and there is almost zero possibility that it will arise in the next 600 years.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
Ideolistic twoddle.
Original post by Maths Tutor
A fairer society has not arisen after 300 years of Westminster (mis)rule and there is almost zero possibility that it will arise in the next 600 years.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
So in summary, no party but the SNP is any good.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
I don't think you understand PR - the 'List' part provides 'top up' to bring a party's total no. of MSPs closer to the party's total percentage vote. You can't talk of 56 PR MSPs and 73 non PR MSPs.
So far, no one in the Yes or No camp has suggested that Independent Scotland would have a different voting system from what it has now.
Your point regarding Merkel and Blair was about Westminster and had absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Independence movement.
"If the independence movement does't stand for this, then what is the point of it?" was therefore complete nonsense.
So far, no one in the Yes or No camp has suggested that Independent Scotland would have a different voting system from what it has now.
Your point regarding Merkel and Blair was about Westminster and had absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Independence movement.
"If the independence movement does't stand for this, then what is the point of it?" was therefore complete nonsense.
You are assuming that people vote for the same party on the list as they would in the FPTP seats. This is false. Since only 56 seats are affected by the PR system, obviously you can split it into PR and Non Pr seats. No-one will lose a seat due to PR, they can only gain them.
The Independence movement should be about what it will do differently to Westminster. If it just imports the Westminster system into a smaller region of the UK, nothing will change and there will be no point in voting for it.
Original post by Maths Tutor
A fairer society has not arisen after 300 years of Westminster (mis)rule and there is almost zero possibility that it will arise in the next 600 years.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
Yet the SNP want to reduce corporation tax for the rich and will increase income tax for the poor.
Independence may bring a fairer society but the SNP won't.
Original post by Midlander
Yes. In recent years Labour has taken people into illegal wars, the Tories are, well, the Tories, and the Lib Dems break their promises. No political party is perfect, nor is the SNP (there are things I don't agree with) but they are doing a hell of a lot better than other parties have for a while.
Perhaps Labour could thrive again in an independent Scotland, who knows.
Original post by Kattt_452
Yes. In recent years Labour has taken people into illegal wars, the Tories are, well, the Tories, and the Lib Dems break their promises. No political party is perfect, nor is the SNP (there are things I don't agree with) but they are doing a hell of a lot better than other parties have for a while.
Perhaps Labour could thrive again in an independent Scotland, who knows.
Perhaps Labour could thrive again in an independent Scotland, who knows.
The SNP has a very similar agenda to Labour but hate England so earn more votes on that basis. As I said earlier Alex Salmond was expelled from the party for corruption but reinstated because he was earning them votes.
So much for their integrity.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Midlander
The SNP has a very similar agenda to Labour but hate England so earn more votes on that basis. As I said earlier Alex Salmond was expelled from the party for corruption but reinstated because he was earning them votes.
So much for their integrity.
Posted from TSR Mobile
So much for their integrity.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The SNP consistently opposed the war - before, during and after. Hardly a similar agenda is it? Scottish people saw the values of old Labour in SNP at the last election...but certainly not the current New Labour.
By the way, I vote for the SNP and I do not hate England. Most of my family are English for goodness sake!
Original post by Kattt_452
The SNP consistently opposed the war - before, during and after. Hardly a similar agenda is it? Scottish people saw the values of old Labour in SNP at the last election...but certainly not the current New Labour.
By the way, I vote for the SNP and I do not hate England. Most of my family are English for goodness sake!
By the way, I vote for the SNP and I do not hate England. Most of my family are English for goodness sake!
Nothing on Alex Salmond's corruption then. Scottish Labour is distinct from UK Labour-and blaming the whole party for Tony Blair is a bit much, he deceived more than just his fellow MPs.
Original post by Kattt_452
The SNP consistently opposed the war - before, during and after. Hardly a similar agenda is it? Scottish people saw the values of old Labour in SNP at the last election...but certainly not the current New Labour.
By the way, I vote for the SNP and I do not hate England. Most of my family are English for goodness sake!
By the way, I vote for the SNP and I do not hate England. Most of my family are English for goodness sake!
This explains it well:
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-the-SNP-Uses-Anglophobia-to-Split-the-Union&id=7387871
Original post by Midlander
So in summary, no party but the SNP is any good.
Original post by punani
Yet the SNP want to reduce corporation tax for the rich and will increase income tax for the poor.
Independence may bring a fairer society but the SNP won't.
Independence may bring a fairer society but the SNP won't.
Can anyone see 'SNP' anywhere in there:
Original post by Maths Tutor
A fairer society has not arisen after 300 years of Westminster (mis)rule and there is almost zero possibility that it will arise in the next 600 years.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
The gap between the rich and poor was WIDER after 13 years of Westminster Labour (mis)rule.
Society is becoming less fair by the second under current Westminster Tory-LibDem (mis)rule.
Only Scottish Independence can bring a fairer society in Scotland, and provide a catalyst for a fairer society in rUK.
The reason for the blind hatred of the SNP by Tory-Labour-LibDem opponents of Scottish Independence?
Because in just over 6 years an SNP government in Scotland has done a million times more for the people of Scotland than Tory-Labour-LibDem governments ever did.
The most the Tory-Labour-LibDem opponents of Scottish Independence are worried about is their own priveleges at Westminster will come to an end after independence.
And that they will never be elected in Scotland unless they care more about the people of Scotland than their own vested interests.
Hence the 'No Scotland' view that there will only be SNP governments in Independent Scotland. Because the Tory-Labour-LibDem politicians have no intention of mending their ways. Otherwise we would have had a fairer society a long time ago.
Original post by punani
You are assuming that people vote for the same party on the list as they would in the FPTP seats. This is false. Since only 56 seats are affected by the PR system, obviously you can split it into PR and Non Pr seats. No-one will lose a seat due to PR, they can only gain them.
The Independence movement should be about what it will do differently to Westminster. If it just imports the Westminster system into a smaller region of the UK, nothing will change and there will be no point in voting for it.
The Independence movement should be about what it will do differently to Westminster. If it just imports the Westminster system into a smaller region of the UK, nothing will change and there will be no point in voting for it.
Your whole point is nothing more than:
'The Scottish Independence movement doing nothing about the absence of Proportional Representation at Westminster'.
The issue about Blair-Westminster system and Merkel-German system had absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Independence movement.
You have absolutely no understanding of Proportional Representation in Scotland and are just talking nonsense.
Original post by Midlander
Scottish Labour is distinct from UK Labour
So distinct that Johann Lamont's 'opinion' on any subject at all has to be communicated to her by Labour party headquarters in London.
There is no such thing as 'Scottish' Labour.
Johann Lamont is the figurehead leader of the Scottish parish sub-branch of the Labour Party based in London.
In the Scottish parliament, she reads out a script written for her by her bosses in London.
As a Labour Party insider, do you know Johann Lamont's 'opinion' on nuclear weapons? When did Milliband convey it to her?
Original post by Foo.mp3
Also bad for those of us with mixed heritage/who identify with both territories. I'm not a Scottish resident but I have Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname, so what are these SNP fools saying?.. suddenly I'm no longer a Scot because some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian bastard says so? Think not
So you will stop being a Scot if Scotland becomes an independent nation again?
You would stop feeling like a Scot if "some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian bastard told you you were not a Scot?
All those with "Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname" living in the USA and throughout the world are not Scots?
All your relatives living in Scotland will suddenly feel 'foreigners' to you if Scotland becomes an independent nation?
You will start hating them then, because everyone in 'One Nation' hates foreigners?
Let me tell you this:
Scots would remain Scots even if Scotland, cut off at the border with England with a pair of scissors, sank permanently into the sea.
And throughout the world Scots would continue to be recognised as Scots.
Original post by Maths Tutor
Your whole point is nothing more than:
'The Scottish Independence movement doing nothing about the absence of Proportional Representation at Westminster'.
The issue about Blair-Westminster system and Merkel-German system had absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Independence movement.
You have absolutely no understanding of Proportional Representation in Scotland and are just talking nonsense.
'The Scottish Independence movement doing nothing about the absence of Proportional Representation at Westminster'.
The issue about Blair-Westminster system and Merkel-German system had absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish Independence movement.
You have absolutely no understanding of Proportional Representation in Scotland and are just talking nonsense.
You are very ignorant on almost everything. Every time you post, another person switches to the No campaign.
Original post by Midlander
The SNP has a very similar agenda to Labour but hate England so earn more votes on that basis. As I said earlier Alex Salmond was expelled from the party for corruption but reinstated because he was earning them votes.
So much for their integrity.
Posted from TSR Mobile
So much for their integrity.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Any evidence at all that the SNP hate England?
What is this expulsion you're talking about? The 79 Group? If so that was categorically not for corruption and he (along with the rest who were expelled then reinstated) was certainly not earning them votes. He wasn't a particuarly prominant politician at that time.
Original post by Midlander
This explains it well:
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-the-SNP-Uses-Anglophobia-to-Split-the-Union&id=7387871
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-the-SNP-Uses-Anglophobia-to-Split-the-Union&id=7387871
Well it's someone's opinion and it's a pretty poorly thought out piece.
If she was just criticising all forms of national identity, whether it's personal or state-related, fine, that at least would be consistent. But she's having a go at Scottish national identity while extolling Britishn national identity. British identiy isn't more inclusive than Scottish just because an internet blogger says so.
Original post by Foo.mp3
On balance: bad for Scotland, and bad for the UK, across a host of themes from security, through social and logistical factors, to economic and political ones
Also bad for those of us with mixed heritage/who identify with both territories. I'm not a Scottish resident but I have Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname, so what are these SNP fools saying?.. suddenly I'm no longer a Scot because some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian bastard says so? Think not
On balance: bad for Scotland, and bad for the UK, across a host of themes from security, through social and logistical factors, to economic and political ones
Also bad for those of us with mixed heritage/who identify with both territories. I'm not a Scottish resident but I have Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname, so what are these SNP fools saying?.. suddenly I'm no longer a Scot because some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian bastard says so? Think not
Eh, no. Nobody is saying that.
A pro-Independence article in an extremely reliable source - The Daily Mail - England edition:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2424713/Scots-MUST-vote-independence-Itll-save-rest-fortune-says-SIMON-HEFFER.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2424713/Scots-MUST-vote-independence-Itll-save-rest-fortune-says-SIMON-HEFFER.html
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