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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Don't want to be associated with em
let em go do their own thing
i'm sure they don't wanna be associated with us either.
let em go do their own thing
i'm sure they don't wanna be associated with us either.
Original post by Maths Tutor
So the bond between Margaret Curran (living in Scotland) and her son (living in London) will be 'diminished', even if they both keep the same country's citizenship?
The bond between a mother and son "diminishes" because one lives abroad?
The bond between a mother and son "diminishes" because one lives abroad?
Yes, the civic bond between them is obviously diminished. I understand that was the Scottish Government's reason for excluding Scots living elsewhere from voting in the 2014 referendum: that they have made their home elsewhere and are no longer connected to our civic institutions.
Original post by L i b
Of course it diminishes the bonds between people. The greatest bond which can exist between any significantly sized group of people is to be co-operating in a polity, working together in a common civic project.
Of course it diminishes the bonds between people. The greatest bond which can exist between any significantly sized group of people is to be co-operating in a polity, working together in a common civic project.
I don't agree. I don't care any more about you because you're British than any other random person from any other country in the world.
Original post by L i b
Yes, the civic bond between them is obviously diminished. I understand that was the Scottish Government's reason for excluding Scots living elsewhere from voting in the 2014 referendum: that they have made their home elsewhere and are no longer connected to our civic institutions.
This is getting pretty desperate. As if real people actually feel this 'civic bond' you're talking about, whatever it is. People don't think of other people in those terms
Original post by Gordon1985
I don't agree. I don't care any more about you because you're British than any other random person from any other country in the world.
I didn't say you did. Indeed, I'd think it irrational for you to do so. What I said is that if we cease to be part of the same polity, we cease to bound by a civic bond of common identity and common enterprise. Which is a backward and - if I might be disparaging - thoroughly nationalist move.
Original post by Maths Tutor
What do you think of 'Better Together's Margaret Curran's claim that her son living in England will become a 'foreigner' if Scotland becomes independent?
Original post by L i b
More or less a fact. There is a good chance we will no longer share the bonds of citizenship with people in the rest of our country if Scotland votes to break away. Even if by a legal quirk we all retain British citizenship, we are no longer part of the same civic project. That, to me, is a thoroughly backward move.
Original post by L i b
At the risk of enabling your peculiar outbursts, I'd be inclined to point out that citizenship is not about family bonds - nor has anyone ever said it is.
So why did you bring 'citizenship' into the question of the bond between Margaret Curran and her son?
Her son becoming a 'foreigner', that is what Margaret Curran was talking about.
It was about the bond between her and her son.
She wasn't talking about the 'civic project' of England v the 'civic project' of Scotland.
Otherwise she could have said she would be very sad that Cameron, Milliband and Clegg would become 'foreigners' to her.
That sadness would have been perfectly understandable.
Original post by yaboy
Don't want to be associated with em
let em go do their own thing
i'm sure they don't wanna be associated with us either.
let em go do their own thing
i'm sure they don't wanna be associated with us either.
No, they don't want to be in the Dog canal with you.
Original post by Gordon1985
This is getting pretty desperate. As if real people actually feel this 'civic bond' you're talking about, whatever it is. People don't think of other people in those terms
It is the only bond that actually means anything.
You talk of nationality - well, Britishness didn't just pop up by some sort of mutual agreement. It was created around the civic institutions of a state. The same is true of Scottishness - the Picts, Britons, Gaels and Angles of North Britain didn't all suddenly decide they were becoming Scots, their identity was formed by the creation of a Scottish kingdom.
Even that absurd clap-trap about ethnicity is based around political boundaries. The idea that a Scot is somehow ethnically distinct from an Englishman, yet a person from Northumbria is not so distinct from a person from Hampshire is - in genetic terms - utter rubbish. It again follows political structures, albeit in this case outdated ones.
In all, these bonds between groups are simply windowdressing for citizenship - a force which has united people based on all corners of the world, which first drew together diverse people from all over the Roman Empire and today forms the basis for any form of democracy to operate. If you don't think that matters, I'm afraid I don't think you've thought about it for long enough.
Original post by Gordon1985
I don't agree. I don't care any more about you because you're British than any other random person from any other country in the world.
L i b denies being a British Nationalist and says he flies a British Nationalist flag ('Rule Brittania') because he 'likes it'.
Original post by Maths Tutor
L i b denies being a British Nationalist and says he flies a British Nationalist flag ('Rule Brittania') because he 'likes it'.
Since when has the white ensign been a BritishNationalist flag?
People like you are dangerous. It's people like you who will be advocating car bombs and shootings when you loose the referendum.
Original post by Gordon1985
This is getting pretty desperate. As if real people actually feel this 'civic bond' you're talking about, whatever it is. People don't think of other people in those terms
Well if you look at the poll at the top of the page you'll see that most of us do actually care about stuff like that.
Original post by Maths Tutor
If there is a YES vote on 18th September 2014, will it be the current SNP government that re-negotiates the terms of Scotland's membership of the EU between 19th September 2014 and the actual date of independence?
Or will the other parties be involved?
Or will the other parties be involved?
Original post by L i b
Well, Scotland couldn't negotiate entry during that time. Article 49 TEU is quite clear that you have to be a "European state" to negotiate entry or membership. Scotland would not be one of those until the date of independence.
In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.
In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.
Original post by Psyk
Isn't the Scottish government effectively an organ of the UK government though? At least until the actual date of independence if the referendum goes that way. Surely the UK government could nominate someone from the Scottish government to be part of those discussions.
Original post by L i b
In essence, possibly. But it would be the UK government that would finally be signing any agreement on the dotted line. I'd disagree with your characterisation of the Scottish government as an 'organ' of the UK government - it is for the UK government to ensure the Scottish government abides by international law for example, but it is constitutionally autonomous in most of its actions.
After a YES vote, there is absolutely no way that the Scottish government will let the UK have any discussions with anyone on behalf of Scotland regarding SCOTLAND'S membership of the EU.
And anyway, by your own definition, how could the UK discuss SCOTLAND'S membership of the EU when Scotland is not yet a "European state"?
So assuming actual independence happens on 31st March 2016, you are suggesting that no one from the EU will discuss membership with Scotland until 31st March 2016. And on 31st March 2016, Scotland will be elligible to start negotiations with the EU.
In my view, that is TOTAL NONSENSE.
In the event of a YES vote, Scotland will be "European state" in the making from 19th September 2014, to say the least.
The EU is pragmatic, not dogmatic. Even if you call them 'informal', discussions between the Scottish government and the EU will happen between 19th September 2014 and 31st March 2016.
If the terms are acceptable to both parties, Scotland's membership could very well begin on 31st March 2016, when all the 'informal' discussions are formalised by actual signatures. And it doesn't matter if Scotland is called a 'new' member.
If the Scottish government decides to hold a referendum, then the start of membership would have to wait for a YES to membership.
It is possible that an existing member state vetoes Scotland's membership.
Like YES Scotland, I am of the view that this will not happen.
NO Scotland is of the view that Scotland will be denied membership.
Voters will have to decide whom to believe.
Original post by MatureStudent36
People like you are dangerous. It's people like you who will be advocating car bombs and shootings when you loose the referendum.
People like you are dangerous. It's people like you who will be advocating car bombs and shootings when you loose the referendum.
Raking that up YET AGAIN?
You are getting desperate and trying to find any excuse to call in the UK army to prevent Scottish Independence!
I PROMISE to PEACEFULLY respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is No.
Can YOU promise not to get involved in or support any dirty tricks and violence before the referendum and to peacefully respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is YES?
Original post by Maths Tutor
Raking that up YET AGAIN?
You are getting desperate and trying to find any excuse to call in the UK army to prevent Scottish Independence!
I PROMISE to PEACEFULLY respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is No.
Can YOU promise not to get involved in or support any dirty tricks and violence before the referendum and to peacefully respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is YES?
You are getting desperate and trying to find any excuse to call in the UK army to prevent Scottish Independence!
I PROMISE to PEACEFULLY respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is No.
Can YOU promise not to get involved in or support any dirty tricks and violence before the referendum and to peacefully respect the outcome of the referendum even if it is YES?
I don't need to call in anybody to stop your pipe dream. The electorate will do that. I'm merely ponying out your warped nationalist mindset creates people like you who get a little unhinged due to the sheltered life they've led not only thinking outside the box, but trying to live outside it. I'm merely concerned About how you'll react when a no vote is delivered. You've convinced yourself that the majority of us think the same as you do, which we don't. I'm scared you'll turn into one of those wierdo animal rights activists types that dig up dead grandmothers.
Original post by Maths Tutor
YOU are NOT in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU. Why not?
Original post by L i b
Because I don't support change to the current situation and indeed believe the public are fairly poorly informed on this issue. I don't think they'll add very much to the debate.
I oppose referendums except in the very most extreme circumstances. Approving a written constitution or something like that is more or less my only exception.
I oppose referendums except in the very most extreme circumstances. Approving a written constitution or something like that is more or less my only exception.
So YOU are NOT in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU because:
1. You are in favour of NO but fear that the outcome will be YES to separartion';
2. The public are fairly poorly informed and will vote YES to 'separartion', against your liking.
3. You oppose referendums.
It seems you don't believe in democracy at all, except as a token gesture every 5 years to fool the people.
The UK electoral system is the most undemocratic one in the EU. Millions of votes are 'wasted votes'.
The 3 Westminster parties have almost identical policies. Where there are differences, they can always be changed after the election.
Eg,
The Liberal Democrats were against tuition fees - that changed as soon as they got into government;
The Liberal Democrats were in favour of a Proportional Representation system for decades - that changed as soon as they got into government (AV is nowhere near Proportional Representation);
People in Scotland voted Labour and Liberal Democrat to keep the Tories out - the Liberal Democrats got the Tories in and Labour has not had any effect on Tory policies whatsoever.
The UK might as well be governed by an unelected politburo comprising politicians from the Tory, Labour, Liberal Democrats - a 'Better Together' government.
In these times of austerity, millions could be saved by not holding unnecessary elections.
And YOU want to prevent Scottish Independence!
Original post by MatureStudent36
I don't need to call in anybody to stop your pipe dream. The electorate will do that. I'm merely ponying out your warped nationalist mindset creates people like you who get a little unhinged due to the sheltered life they've led not only thinking outside the box, but trying to live outside it. I'm merely concerned About how you'll react when a no vote is delivered. You've convinced yourself that the majority of us think the same as you do, which we don't. I'm scared you'll turn into one of those wierdo animal rights activists types that dig up dead grandmothers.
Calm down.
You will have the UK army, and the BBC, on your side to prevent any problems after a NO vote.
You can always call in NATO if a few Scots get rebellious.
Australia is full, but I am sure you will find some other nice place to expel them to.
Oh, and why aren't YOU promising to accept a YES vote peacefully?
If you have so much confidence in the electorate delivering a NO vote, why do you spend all your waking hours on this thread?
What do YOUR latest polls suggest? 99% NO, 0% YES, 1% DON'T KNOW?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Maths Tutor
So let us get this clear. As a Labour party member,
Do YOU believe that Ed Milliband is a 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that Johann Lamont is a 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that Ed Milliband and / or Johann Lamont are 'sell outs'?
Do YOU believe that the Labour party is 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that the SNP is 'socialist'?
Would YOU like one or more of the above to be 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that Ed Milliband is a 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that Johann Lamont is a 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that Ed Milliband and / or Johann Lamont are 'sell outs'?
Do YOU believe that the Labour party is 'socialist'?
Do YOU believe that the SNP is 'socialist'?
Would YOU like one or more of the above to be 'socialist'?
I don't think any of them are socialist and I don't see what this has to do with the discussion. Can YOU refrain from upper case?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by L i b
Of course it diminishes the bonds between people. The greatest bond which can exist between any significantly sized group of people is to be co-operating in a polity, working together in a common civic project.
Of course it diminishes the bonds between people. The greatest bond which can exist between any significantly sized group of people is to be co-operating in a polity, working together in a common civic project.
But I think we can all agree that has absolutely no bearing on personal relatinships like mother/son?
Why does this cooperation you're talking about need to be civic? Why can't it be international? Do people even really feel like everyone in a nation state is 'working together' or 'cooperating'? I don't and I doubt many do.
Original post by L i b
I didn't say you did. Indeed, I'd think it irrational for you to do so. What I said is that if we cease to be part of the same polity, we cease to bound by a civic bond of common identity and common enterprise. Which is a backward and - if I might be disparaging - thoroughly nationalist move.
Yep fair enough. That would be one extemely tenoous bnd which would be broken. Although as I said, I doubt many people at all feel that 'civic nationality' entails some kin of common enterprise these days, if they ever did at all.
Frankly, I think it's quite nationalistic to care so much for these 'civic bonds'. I don't. I wouldn't feel any differently about any English, Welsh or Northern Irish person if the UK was to brake up. I think that's a far more internationalist view point than yours.
Original post by L i b
It is the only bond that actually means anything.
That is possibly the most insane and wild thing I've read yet on this thread.
You talk of nationality - well, Britishness didn't just pop up by some sort of mutual agreement. It was created around the civic institutions of a state. The same is true of Scottishness - the Picts, Britons, Gaels and Angles of North Britain didn't all suddenly decide they were becoming Scots, their identity was formed by the creation of a Scottish kingdom.
Even that absurd clap-trap about ethnicity is based around political boundaries. The idea that a Scot is somehow ethnically distinct from an Englishman, yet a person from Northumbria is not so distinct from a person from Hampshire is - in genetic terms - utter rubbish. It again follows political structures, albeit in this case outdated ones.
In all, these bonds between groups are simply windowdressing for citizenship - a force which has united people based on all corners of the world, which first drew together diverse people from all over the Roman Empire and today forms the basis for any form of democracy to operate. If you don't think that matters, I'm afraid I don't think you've thought about it for long enough.
Of course that's been a feature of human society and still is. But that kind of nationalism is something I'd quite like to see us move away from gradually as a species.
That's why I don't really buy this 'civic bond' stuff. I don't really care what people's nationalities are (civic or otherwise) so I don't particulalry care whether I share the same passport as someone and wouldn't feel any bond between us was srengthened or weakened based on what it says on ur passports.
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