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Feel that my gf's going to 'inevitably' grow beyond me and leave me

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Reply 100
Original post by Mankytoes
If you enjoy the gym fine, but not everyone does, no one needs to go.



Unless there's a good reason, it is definitely is ****ty behaviour. It's basic that you don't just ignore your partner like that. The problem is that your self esteem is too low, so you don't accept anything isn't your fault. That'll make a relationship hard. You need to look at things objectively and recognise when people are out of order.


Going on the most base assumption that that's what it is, is her being extra moody because of period pains a good reason?
Well I think it might be my fault. See I said at 10AM Wednesday 'I can't come in because I need to do coursework...we could meet after 4PM (on the assumption I handed my work in by then-which I didn't, and explained to her was unlikely around 2PM )
It's not as if I messed her around massively, we only would have met on campus, I worked at home while she worked on campus, so it meant she stayed there and I didn't come in. If I'd said meet on the other side of town or something then I'd feel I'd messed her about more. I made it pretty clear if we met it'd just be for a quick catch-up to check she was alright given she implied she was missing me, and obviously I care if she didn't feel great.

So I don't know, I can't tell who here is out of order, or whether we're both excused.
Original post by Riku
Going on the most base assumption that that's what it is, is her being extra moody because of period pains a good reason?
Well I think it might be my fault. See I said at 10AM Wednesday 'I can't come in because I need to do coursework...we could meet after 4PM (on the assumption I handed my work in by then-which I didn't, and explained to her was unlikely around 2PM )
It's not as if I messed her around massively, we only would have met on campus, I worked at home while she worked on campus, so it meant she stayed there and I didn't come in. If I'd said meet on the other side of town or something then I'd feel I'd messed her about more. I made it pretty clear if we met it'd just be for a quick catch-up to check she was alright given she implied she was missing me, and obviously I care if she didn't feel great.

So I don't know, I can't tell who here is out of order, or whether we're both excused.


No that's no excuse, she could at least drop you a call.
Original post by Riku
One of the texts explicitly said 'woo handed it in!', and that was a day ago, and still no response :/

See I don't know whether it is ****ty behaviour on her behalf. She does go quiet/have a change of mood but a) it's never been so bad she's ignored me, b) I don't like putting everything down to 'oh it's her hormones'.
I'm not sure how to even raise the subject, since I've been saying 'hope you're OK' etc., which is an invitation to talk when she's ready, but there's only so much you can take.


When you know you're going to be free, text her saying something along the lines of 'do you still want that cuddle?' or something similar.
Original post by Mankytoes
If you enjoy the gym fine, but not everyone does, no one needs to go.


It's a good place to build confidence, reduce stress, and become happier. It was just a suggestion, as is the point of everyone's replies. Calm down.
Original post by Riku
I'm ignoring the alpha male BS the rest of people have posted because that stuff has tore my mind to pieces and anyway she hates all the mindgames

What's the right attitude then?


I agree with you too. Some of UK might be like that BS. Go to Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, Hong Kong, girls like sweet. Infact go to europe, I always find i'm in a different dimension where people (strangers) actually smile at me. Anyway you have a girl friend so you're ok. Wish I had one, at 31 and never had one.
Reply 105
Original post by Mankytoes
No that's no excuse, she could at least drop you a call.



Original post by Mankytoes
No that's no excuse, she could at least drop you a call.



Original post by Anonymous
When you know you're going to be free, text her saying something along the lines of 'do you still want that cuddle?' or something similar.


Bumped into her today. Apparently I hurt her when I said after 'Sorry got to do my coursework', 'Even though I can't always be with you, I'm thinking of you :cuddles:'
The way she interpreted it I implied she was a burden, being overbearing and over-demanding. In truth I'd bloody well rather be cuddling her than having to do coursework but for someone so obsessed with being a 'real man' I ought to be responsible!

But yeah she decided she was getting in the way of me working and gave me the cold shoulder. It's all good now though :smile: and yes she apologised. But I'm more glad she's alright :smile:

Original post by EonBlueApocalypse
It's a good place to build confidence, reduce stress, and become happier. It was just a suggestion, as is the point of everyone's replies. Calm down.


I completely agree, however recovering from a mild eating disorder of sorts which stems from the anxiety I am trying to focus on other ways to build confidence :smile: (basically I've displaced most of my reasons for being stressed into not working out/eating some 'junk' rather than procrastinating, going to bed late, not doing my work or worrying about a million and one things. Either I'm not living 'healthy' enough or I'm getting too skinny/too fat).
Btw I'm not saying , but I've had my priorities wrong for the last couple of years (fitness over job prospects basically, and I wasn't even very fit lol :P) so now I need to amend them.
When the time is right I hope to get back into fitness :smile:

Original post by Flyingaround
I agree with you too. Some of UK might be like that BS. Go to Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Japan, Hong Kong, girls like sweet. Infact go to europe, I always find i'm in a different dimension where people (strangers) actually smile at me. Anyway you have a girl friend so you're ok. Wish I had one, at 31 and never had one.


You'll find someone one day buddy. Beisdes, when you're single no-one yells at you for extensive Minecraft sessions or film marathons :P
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Riku
Bumped into her today. Apparently I hurt her when I said after 'Sorry got to do my coursework', 'Even though I can't always be with you, I'm thinking of you :cuddles:'
The way she interpreted it I implied she was a burden, being overbearing and over-demanding. In truth I'd bloody well rather be cuddling her than having to do coursework but for someone so obsessed with being a 'real man' I ought to be responsible!



I completely agree, however recovering from a mild eating disorder of sorts which stems from the anxiety I am trying to focus on other ways to build confidence :smile: (basically I've displaced most of my reasons for being stressed into not working out/eating some 'junk' rather than procrastinating, going to bed late, not doing my work or worrying about a million and one things. Either I'm not living 'healthy' enough or I'm getting too skinny/too fat).
Btw I'm not saying , but I've had my priorities wrong for the last couple of years (fitness over job prospects basically, and I wasn't even very fit lol :P) so now I need to amend them.
When the time is right I hope to get back into fitness :smile:



You'll find someone one day buddy. Beisdes, when you're single no-one yells at you for extensive Minecraft sessions or film marathons :P

LOL! I know, I'm going to stay in a hostel in london next week (i'm from manchester but decided it would be fun in order to meet foreign visitors) Then I've booked a flight out of here in january to manila but i keep having to do these crazy saving methods and travelling just to make a friend of the female persuasion (i'm never looking for sex however.) But I've probably told myself to give up on the uk and i keep preaching which i shouldn't. It would be nice to be suprised in the uk but then i'd not know what to do with it lol
Please, for the love of god, just ignore all this crap that is floating around the internet about dating rules, alpha/beta men, "standards" of men, whatever. If it looks like it could have come from reddit, close your eyes and ignore it. Most of that advice is written by men who wouldn't know a meaningful relationship if it slapped them in the face.

People are not products you can rank on a rating system. If she loves you, there IS no "better" guy out there. Just be supportive of this exciting time in her life and her growing confidence and don't make it about you or your relationship, because it's not. There's nothing worse than being held back by someone else's insecurity.

Also, :hugs: because eating disorders + anxiety are really tough.
Reply 108
Original post by riotgrrl
Please, for the love of god, just ignore all this crap that is floating around the internet about dating rules, alpha/beta men, "standards" of men, whatever. If it looks like it could have come from reddit, close your eyes and ignore it. Most of that advice is written by men who wouldn't know a meaningful relationship if it slapped them in the face.

People are not products you can rank on a rating system. If she loves you, there IS no "better" guy out there. Just be supportive of this exciting time in her life and her growing confidence and don't make it about you or your relationship, because it's not. There's nothing worse than being held back by someone else's insecurity.

Also, :hugs: because eating disorders + anxiety are really tough.


:hugs: Thank you

______________________
This may sound a little possessive, but I'm meeting with my girlfriend and her friends tomorrow (just in the student pub tbh but it's a big thing for her

Her friend is there, the guy she calls Superman. So obviously this is opening old wounds, and I wonder how interested she is in him.
She did ask me what dress she could wear though, which suggests to me it's also trying to impress me (which is lovely of her, but she really doesn't have to do that!

I was about to say 'I'm happy if she wants to impress me or herself with what she's wearing but another guys', then decided that's not my decision to make. Having said that I do feel if she is going to get other men's attention, I'd hope it to be in a 'you can look but you can't touch way'. She doesn't seem the type to cheat but I am a paranoid after all, and I do worry about her wanting to go flirt with all the guys and maybe pick one up. Although chances are she wouldn't go break my heart like that. I hope.

What do???
Original post by Riku
:hugs: Thank you

______________________
This may sound a little possessive, but I'm meeting with my girlfriend and her friends tomorrow (just in the student pub tbh but it's a big thing for her

Her friend is there, the guy she calls Superman. So obviously this is opening old wounds, and I wonder how interested she is in him.
She did ask me what dress she could wear though, which suggests to me it's also trying to impress me (which is lovely of her, but she really doesn't have to do that!

I was about to say 'I'm happy if she wants to impress me or herself with what she's wearing but another guys', then decided that's not my decision to make. Having said that I do feel if she is going to get other men's attention, I'd hope it to be in a 'you can look but you can't touch way'. She doesn't seem the type to cheat but I am a paranoid after all, and I do worry about her wanting to go flirt with all the guys and maybe pick one up. Although chances are she wouldn't go break my heart like that. I hope.

What do???


Do nothing. Chill out. If she is the type that is going to cheat on you (and it doesn't sound like she is), your worrying and stressing and not letting her wear low cut dresses is not going to help, or stop it. If she is not the type to cheat (and if you trust her and love her and are with her, I assume this what you think of her) then worrying and stressing and not letting her wear low cut dresses is simply going to piss her off and make her feel like you don't trust her.

RE: Other guys looking at her- my ex boyfriend was a little bit insecure, understandably since he'd been cheated on several times, and he had this habit of undermining any compliment another guy gave me, because he felt like his compliments were the only ones that should matter. To be honest, that didn't really help my self esteem. My current boyfriend takes the view that "other guys looking at my girlfriend = my girlfriend is hot = I win." That route is a lot less stressful and helps the self-esteem of both partners.
ll
Original post by Riku
:hugs: Thank you

______________________
This may sound a little possessive, but I'm meeting with my girlfriend and her friends tomorrow (just in the student pub tbh but it's a big thing for her

Her friend is there, the guy she calls Superman. So obviously this is opening old wounds, and I wonder how interested she is in him.
She did ask me what dress she could wear though, which suggests to me it's also trying to impress me (which is lovely of her, but she really doesn't have to do that!

I was about to say 'I'm happy if she wants to impress me or herself with what she's wearing but another guys', then decided that's not my decision to make. Having said that I do feel if she is going to get other men's attention, I'd hope it to be in a 'you can look but you can't touch way'. She doesn't seem the type to cheat but I am a paranoid after all, and I do worry about her wanting to go flirt with all the guys and maybe pick one up. Although chances are she wouldn't go break my heart like that. I hope.

What do???


I don't think this is what you're really asking, but little tip, you should have suggested a dress. Think of one you like and say it, it shows you're thinking about her. That isn't controlling, she asked. Obviously you shouldn't say "I don't want you wearing that", but the positive version, ie "you should wear that, it looks great on you", sounds caring and attentive. It's like how when I used to go for a meal with a girl, I'd say "where do you wanna go?", thinking she'd like being given the choice, but really it sounds like I've put no effort in. Much better to say "I know this great Italian place, sound good?".
Reply 111
Original post by riotgrrl
x



Original post by Mankytoes
ll

x


Thanks again both of you :smile: I'd never undermine compliments she received, but I guess I'd be wary of the compliments seemed more like advances. I think that'd be understandable?
Incidentally last night I had said 'wear the white dress, makes you look even more gorgeous' or something along those lines, so I'm hoping my response sounded like I care. Generally speaking I do try to plan ahead to show I care but we're running out of places to go now and I don't know the city too well, so now I'm starting to fumble :tongue:
As it happens she's told me she's not wearing the dress today, she's going to save it for 'somewhere sometime more quiet :wink:'
If that doesn't allay my fears I guess nothing will!
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 112
An even dumber scenario: I spilled my muesli this morning and spent half an hour cleaning up. Now I'm going to be late to a meeting with her and her friends. I feel really clumsy and stupid.
I haven't told her specifics although I did tell her there was an accident at home, I was going to be a little late and I'm really sorry. I don't know whether she'd consider my spilling the muesli a dealbreaker :/
Original post by Riku
An even dumber scenario: I spilled my muesli this morning and spent half an hour cleaning up. Now I'm going to be late to a meeting with her and her friends. I feel really clumsy and stupid.
I haven't told her specifics although I did tell her there was an accident at home, I was going to be a little late and I'm really sorry. I don't know whether she'd consider my spilling the muesli a dealbreaker :/


She sounds like a nice girl and really, spilling muesli isn't going to hurt her that much! Hope it goes well Riku x
Reply 114
Original post by Riku
Has anyone ever had this and how did they deal with it?

For the last couple of months seeing my girlfriend build confidence and becoming more sociable, I've been so, so happy for her that she's finally starting to settle into university and be comfortable in her own skin.
But then I had that sinking feeling that soon enough she's going to be confident enough not to want me holding her back anymore. She's a lot more active in University life, holds positions on the committees, does advocacy work, gets a lot of voluntary opportunities, and has a lot more friends on campus-basically she was only just out of my league and soon she's going to be way out of it.

I'm not sure what to do. Well actually that's the point, there is nothing I can do, except either resign myself to her eventually leaving (which feels 80% certain)
What should I do? Break it to her that she needs to go and have the best life she can because I can't provide it for her?


This self defeating attitude is why your relationship will fail.

The fact that she's improved herself at university is a good thing, you should be pleased for her. Equally you should certainly not view yourself as inferior because the only people who believe in leagues are the people who lack the self confidence to attain their desires and keep them. When i was in my sexual prime i was getting chubbier and losing hair yet i never once viewed myself as inferior to a potential mate because i'm funny, brilliant and frankly there's nobody else like me despite the fact that there are smarter, funnier and more physically attractive males. You need to have the confidence in yourself to claim what you see as rightfully yours (her) and so you need to stop thinking crap about her being out of your league, as far as i'm concerned no woman is out of anybody's league.

Original post by Bassetts
Your situation sounds like EXACTLY the situation my sister was in. She had a boyfriend at home for 3 years before university. Suddenly a few weeks into her 1st year, they split up. She 'upgraded' to a better bf, so to speak.

OP, many relationships at young ages are based on lust and people are on the lookout to 'upgrade' their bf/gf when the time is right. You would be naive to think otherwise.

You can't 'do' anything. If she's around lots of guys, making lots of friends, it is the inevitable natural course of events that she will dump a weedy, stressed out, beta male like you for an alpha dominant male at uni. Your only choice is to find a different gf before the inevitable occurs. Do not attach yourself to her because she is effectively not your gf any longer.


Original post by Bassetts
Forget the word alpha male. Instead use 'other guys'. These other guys have better qualities than you, simply put. They are closer to her at uni. This is a no brainer. She will leave you for one of these better guys and forget you ever existed. Natural selection and all that.


While technically true its an incredibly weak attitude to hold and is self defeating. OP does not need to change himself to the extent that he becomes a strong, dominant alpha but he does need to develop the mindset that she is lucky to have him.
Original post by Mankytoes
ll

I don't think this is what you're really asking, but little tip, you should have suggested a dress. Think of one you like and say it, it shows you're thinking about her. That isn't controlling, she asked. Obviously you shouldn't say "I don't want you wearing that", but the positive version, ie "you should wear that, it looks great on you", sounds caring and attentive. It's like how when I used to go for a meal with a girl, I'd say "where do you wanna go?", thinking she'd like being given the choice, but really it sounds like I've put no effort in. Much better to say "I know this great Italian place, sound good?".


Yeah, this is actually really good advice. I love it when my boyfriend shows he's actually been paying attention to what I wear etc.
Reply 116
The day's been going quite well. I think her friend 'Superman' is a really nice guy, and fun to be with. Fortunately he doesn't look like Superman but just your average geeky undergraduate, so we're on par there :smile:

But (and I think the uncertainty about what my parents did to break up is coming here)...I think they have chemistry. She was talking to him more (though including me in conversation), laughing at his jokes, they ahd banter going on, and she was playing with ehr hair while talking to him. I thought she wanted to sit next to him on the sofa rather than me for a moment, although she then shuffled a bit closer to me, whether with any significance or not I don't know.

It's just been the two of them for the last 2 hours while I went off to a lecture. I wouldn't be surprised if like in a soap opera, I come back and find their hands all over each other. Not because I don't trust her as such, or that because I think he's a slimeball, but because that's what happens in the real world. People lie and betray you, and you just have to deal with that **** because life's not fair and you can't go crying home to your mum in the real world
I just saw a documentary about comic books and it exploring the 'seedier' side of life, and it made me realise how vanilla I am. I don't drink much, don't smoke, don't do drugs, I'm a virgin, I don't even like slashers or particularly get turned on by porn. I feel such a kid

Original post by Rakas21
This self defeating attitude is why your relationship will fail.

The fact that she's improved herself at university is a good thing, you should be pleased for her. Equally you should certainly not view yourself as inferior because the only people who believe in leagues are the people who lack the self confidence to attain their desires and keep them.
When i was in my sexual prime i was getting chubbier and losing hair yet i never once viewed myself as inferior to a potential mate because i'm funny, brilliant and frankly there's nobody else like me despite the fact that there are smarter, funnier and more physically attractive males. You need to have the confidence in yourself to claim what you see as rightfully yours (her) and so you need to stop thinking crap about her being out of your league, as far as i'm concerned no woman is out of anybody's league.

But by virtue of them being 'better', they are better people. So who gives a **** about how unique we are?
I hate city life, it's making me cold. But perhaps it's just showing me the truth





While technically true its an incredibly weak attitude to hold and is self defeating. OP does not need to change himself to the extent that he becomes a strong, dominant alpha but he does need to develop the mindset that she is lucky to have him.


No, I'm ****ing lucky I'm alive and haven't been struck by lightning or ahd a heart attack or something yet (I'm a bit paranoid that one day I'll die in my sleep). I've been a terrible person in my past and still think terrible things. And I'm pretty lucky that the police haven't come to arrest me, or someone hasn't gone to Section me
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Riku
The day's been going quite well. I think her friend 'Superman' is a really nice guy, and fun to be with. Fortunately he doesn't look like Superman but just your average geeky undergraduate, so we're on par there :smile:

But (and I think the uncertainty about what my parents did to break up is coming here)...I think they have chemistry. She was talking to him more (though including me in conversation), laughing at his jokes, they ahd banter going on, and she was playing with ehr hair while talking to him. I thought she wanted to sit next to him on the sofa rather than me for a moment, although she then shuffled a bit closer to me, whether with any significance or not I don't know.

It's just been the two of them for the last 2 hours while I went off to a lecture. I wouldn't be surprised if like in a soap opera, I come back and find their hands all over each other. Not because I don't trust her as such, or that because I think he's a slimeball, but because that's what happens in the real world. People lie and betray you, and you just have to deal with that **** because life's not fair and you can't go crying home to your mum in the real world
I just saw a documentary about comic books and it exploring the 'seedier' side of life, and it made me realise how vanilla I am. I don't drink much, don't smoke, don't do drugs, I'm a virgin, I don't even like slashers or particularly get turned on by porn. I feel such a kid



Riku, you are completely over-reacting. I have great banter with my guy friends. The other day I was with one of my guy friends and I guess to his mates it seemed like there was more to it than there was because of our banter and private jokes but there's nothing going on. If you trust her then you know she won't do anything. It takes 2 to tango and if she's trustworthy she won't do anything.

Part of me thinks you shouldn't be in a relationship...
Reply 118
Original post by Riku
The day's been going quite well. I think her friend 'Superman' is a really nice guy, and fun to be with. Fortunately he doesn't look like Superman but just your average geeky undergraduate, so we're on par there :smile:

But (and I think the uncertainty about what my parents did to break up is coming here)...I think they have chemistry. She was talking to him more (though including me in conversation), laughing at his jokes, they ahd banter going on, and she was playing with ehr hair while talking to him. I thought she wanted to sit next to him on the sofa rather than me for a moment, although she then shuffled a bit closer to me, whether with any significance or not I don't know.

It's just been the two of them for the last 2 hours while I went off to a lecture. I wouldn't be surprised if like in a soap opera, I come back and find their hands all over each other. Not because I don't trust her as such, or that because I think he's a slimeball, but because that's what happens in the real world. People lie and betray you, and you just have to deal with that **** because life's not fair and you can't go crying home to your mum in the real world
I just saw a documentary about comic books and it exploring the 'seedier' side of life, and it made me realise how vanilla I am. I don't drink much, don't smoke, don't do drugs, I'm a virgin, I don't even like slashers or particularly get turned on by porn. I feel such a kid

This self defeating attitude is why your relationship will fail.

The fact that she's improved herself at university is a good thing, you should be pleased for her. Equally you should certainly not view yourself as inferior because the only people who believe in leagues are the people who lack the self confidence to attain their desires and keep them. When i was in my sexual prime i was getting chubbier and losing hair yet i never once viewed myself as inferior to a potential mate because i'm funny, brilliant and frankly there's nobody else like me despite the fact that there are smarter, funnier and more physically attractive males. You need to have the confidence in yourself to claim what you see as rightfully yours (her) and so you need to stop thinking crap about her being out of your league, as far as i'm concerned no woman is out of anybody's league.

But by virtue of them being 'better', they are better people. So who gives a **** about how unique we are?
I hate city life, it's making me cold. But perhaps it's just showing me the truth


No, I'm ****ing lucky I'm alive and haven't been struck by lightning or ahd a heart attack or something yet (I'm a bit paranoid that one day I'll die in my sleep). I've been a terrible person in my past and still think terrible things. And I'm pretty lucky that the police haven't come to arrest me, or someone hasn't gone to Section me


Why are you a virgin still? Religious? Is your girlfriend? How long have you being together?

What depressing logic, no wonder you hold such a view. Why do you think your girlfriend went out with you to begin with? You should believe that that you are perfect for her and the complete package regardless of whether somebody beats you in one or two areas.

Again. You focus on the negatives rather than taking the view that you are deserving.

This is not city life, you clearly have preexisting inadequacy issues.
Reply 119
Original post by jazzykinks
Riku, you are completely over-reacting. I have great banter with my guy friends. The other day I was with one of my guy friends and I guess to his mates it seemed like there was more to it than there was because of our banter and private jokes but there's nothing going on. If you trust her then you know she won't do anything. It takes 2 to tango and if she's trustworthy she won't do anything.

Part of me thinks you shouldn't be in a relationship...


Maybe I shouldn't. I have considered ending it before for her sake.
I think I trust her, but maybe I don't trust anyone. Maybe I don't trust myself either. I don't know.
This was definitely what it was, but even if he's taken she's going to have good (better?) memories with him, just by the fact he seems to make her laugh more. Imo he is genuinely probably a better match for her, although she is a good match for me, if that even makes sense.

Original post by Rakas21
Why are you a virgin still? Religious? Is your girlfriend? How long have you being together?

What depressing logic, no wonder you hold such a view. Why do you think your girlfriend went out with you to begin with? You should believe that that you are perfect for her and the complete package regardless of whether somebody beats you in one or two areas.

Again. You focus on the negatives rather than taking the view that you are deserving.

This is not city life, you clearly have preexisting inadequacy issues.


Several reasons

i) Religious
ii) First girlfriend
iii) Don't really like the concept of ONSes, nor am I 'alpha' enough in mindset to go about it. Unless I am quite direct with my thoughts, my dick goes floppy
iv) Mental illness and clearly huge trust/intimacy issues. As in, how do I know the person I sleep with isn't out to kill me? Or at very least, how do I know they're not fantasising about someone else. Yes I'm aware this sounds like clinical paranoia

v) So is she (Hindu) so sex is a big big deal for her, the whole concept of having a relationship is and is a big secret from her family. It's been 7 months and we've already said the L word

Personally I think she went out with me because once upon a time when we met, many years ago, I was 'alpha'. And then my parents were divorced, and I started losing sleep and feeling I had to drink and getting behind on work, and had panic attacks and ruminations kick in in a way ,ike never before, and even though it's been five years since divorce and 3 since diagnosis of an anxiety disorder that's knocked my confidence a bit, and it makes me question stuff a lot.

Also I frequently find myself self-sabotaging. Things like I shouldn't really drink too much because it might trigger anxiety or panic or even depression, but I feel I have to anyway because of one of my ruminations about what it is to be a man

I can't understand how I can be perfect and the whole package, if someone is superior to me (and we're talking one or two significant areas, I personally think that he is funnier than me using a basic ratio of how much she laughs and smiles with him compared to with me. It might be the best thing for my self-esteem but it's not logical.

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