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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Original post by L i b
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
Original post by Maths Tutor
How on earth is the 'SNP's expenditure' responsible for the UK budget deficit?
Original post by L i b
Because it's money that had to be borrowed and came out of our deficit. Obviously. And the SNP wanted more, more and more again.
Original post by Maths Tutor
The SNP HAS NEVER HAD ANY SAY WHATSOEVER IN THE UK BUDGET DEFICIT / NATIONAL DEBT, FULL STOP.
The SNP government in Scotland, since coming to power 6 years ago, has spent the 'pocket money' it receives from the UK Treasury, NOT A PENNY MORE.
Even your fellow anti-Independence posters, MatureStudent36, Midlander, Aj12, Good bloke, FinalMH, Quady, Psyk etc. have refrained from blaming the SNP for the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / NATIONAL DEBT.
The SNP government in Scotland, since coming to power 6 years ago, has spent the 'pocket money' it receives from the UK Treasury, NOT A PENNY MORE.
Even your fellow anti-Independence posters, MatureStudent36, Midlander, Aj12, Good bloke, FinalMH, Quady, Psyk etc. have refrained from blaming the SNP for the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / NATIONAL DEBT.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I wouldn't go as far as saying that the UK deficit is the result of the SNP.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that the UK deficit is the result of the SNP.
Yes, not even YOU would go THAT FAR.
Original post by Good bloke
So independence is a short term venture, is it?
No, it is not and I didn't say that. I was talking about Sterling as you very well know.
Original post by Good bloke
You have told us that Scotland doesn't figure in BoE thinking when it comes to currency policy; now you tell us that Scotland being in currency union would benefit the UK. Do you see the contradiction?
A contradiction only arises if you distort what I wrote.
I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.
POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:
a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;
OR
b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
Original post by Maths Tutor
No, it is not and I didn't say that. I was talking about Sterling as you very well know.
A contradiction only arises if you distort what I wrote.
I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.
POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:
a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;
OR
b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
A contradiction only arises if you distort what I wrote.
I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.
POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:
a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;
OR
b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
You've ignored the important political of issue of the electorate of the rUK agreeing to a currency union. That's a big ask as I'll translate what the real question would be to the people of the rUK which is 'do you want your tax money to be used as a lender of last resort for another country?'
As we can see within the EU ( which you've omitted to mention that once we apply to join the EU we are obliged to take in the EURO) currency unions only work with political unions.
so basically, what you're saying is that we'll set up a formal currency union with the UK whilst simultaneously working towards taking on the EURO?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Quady
Putting things in bold does make you sound loony but I'll take the bait...
OK so the SNP is fiscally responsible?
- What will be the transition cost of independence? (say to the nearest £25bn)
- What will be the Scottish corporate tax rates? (higher/lower)
- What will be the Scottish income tax rates? (higher/lower)
- What will Scottish welfare payments be? (higher/lower)
- What will Scottish borrowing yields be during transition (higher/lower)
- What will happen do Scottish oil revenues over the next 30 years?
- What will whisky duty rates be? (higher/lower)
You're right, its impossible to judge Salmonds economic record without him having had the power to test it. Its just his comments about Scotland being the Celtic Tiger/Icelandic economy were misjudged analogies with hindsight. Coupled with most of what he says suggests tax rates will go down and spending will go up.
OK so the SNP is fiscally responsible?
- What will be the transition cost of independence? (say to the nearest £25bn)
- What will be the Scottish corporate tax rates? (higher/lower)
- What will be the Scottish income tax rates? (higher/lower)
- What will Scottish welfare payments be? (higher/lower)
- What will Scottish borrowing yields be during transition (higher/lower)
- What will happen do Scottish oil revenues over the next 30 years?
- What will whisky duty rates be? (higher/lower)
You're right, its impossible to judge Salmonds economic record without him having had the power to test it. Its just his comments about Scotland being the Celtic Tiger/Icelandic economy were misjudged analogies with hindsight. Coupled with most of what he says suggests tax rates will go down and spending will go up.
Original post by L i b
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
Original post by L i b
Because it's money that had to be borrowed and came out of our deficit. Obviously. And the SNP wanted more, more and more again.
We are talking about the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / TRILLION POUNDS PLUS NATIONAL DEBT which exists NOW.
How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?
Clue:
Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:
- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)
- Alastair Darling (New Labour)
- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Maths Tutor
We are talking about the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / TRILLION POUNDS PLUS NATIONAL DEBT which exists NOW.
How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?
Clue:
Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:
- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)
- Alastair Darling (New Labour)
- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
The UK Treasury gave the SNP government all the money it wanted, did it?
How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?
Clue:
Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:
- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)
- Alastair Darling (New Labour)
- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
The UK Treasury gave the SNP government all the money it wanted, did it?
Two out of three chancellors appear to be Scottish. Kind of disproves your point that Scotland isn't represented in Westminster.
I'd say neutral
Original post by MatureStudent36
Two out of three chancellors appear to be Scottish. Kind of disproves your point that Scotland isn't represented in Westminster.
Did those 'Scottish' chancellors give MORE MONEY to Scotland?
The NAZIS repeated the same lie over and over again to make the people believe it to be true.
That is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING on this thread:
Original post by MatureStudent36
Westminster rules over Scotland like it rules over Wales, Yorkshire or Chipping Norton. You choose to have a parochial outlook and will therefore always see yourself as a victimised minority. There's people throughout Scotland that see themselves as a victimised minority in Holyrood.
You seem to forget that we've produced two out of the last three PMs. Hardly a case of a far off distant parliament of foreigners telling us what to do.
You seem to forget that we've produced two out of the last three PMs. Hardly a case of a far off distant parliament of foreigners telling us what to do.
Original post by Maths Tutor
That NONSENSE yet again?
Are Scottish Prime Ministers biased towards Scotland?
Are English Prime Ministers biased towards England?
Are Welsh Prime Ministers biased towards Wales?
Are Irish Prime Ministers biased towards N. Ireland?
Are Scottish Prime Ministers biased towards Scotland?
Are English Prime Ministers biased towards England?
Are Welsh Prime Ministers biased towards Wales?
Are Irish Prime Ministers biased towards N. Ireland?
Original post by MatureStudent36
Thank you for demonstrating to me that nationalists seem to be driven by a xenophobic streak.
Every part of the UK gets treated equally
Every part of the UK gets treated equally
Original post by Maths Tutor
That can't be true. Two of the last three prime ministers were SCOTTISH. By YOUR perverted logic, that was great for Scotland as the SCOTTISH prime ministers must have been 'more equal' to Scotland than rUK.
Since you seem so ignorant about it, let me inform you.
Scottish independence is NOT about the ethnicity of the Prime Minister.
It is about bringing an end to Westminster rule over Scotland.
Since you seem so ignorant about it, let me inform you.
Scottish independence is NOT about the ethnicity of the Prime Minister.
It is about bringing an end to Westminster rule over Scotland.
Original post by Maths Tutor
Did those 'Scottish' chancellors give MORE MONEY to Scotland?
The NAZIS repeated the same lie over and over again to make the people believe it to be true.
That is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING on this thread:
The NAZIS repeated the same lie over and over again to make the people believe it to be true.
That is EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING on this thread:
My god, you've bought the nazis into it. But we won't talk about the
SNPs history there.
Interesting though that you've brought up the 'if you tell a lie long enough people would believe it.'
Not too unlike the rather outlandish claims made by the yeSNP campaign. They keep repeating them in the vain attempt that people will believe them. Sadly for the YeSNP campaign, most of us have seen through their bluster.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by L i b
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
The SNP cannot run a budget deficit by law, but their expenditure is responsible for the UK budget deficit.
Original post by L i b
Because it's money that had to be borrowed and came out of our deficit. Obviously. And the SNP wanted more, more and more again.
Original post by L i b
It is entirely correct to say the SNP government's spending has had a huge influence on the UK national debt.
Original post by L i b
Also not a great deal less. Which is part of the problem. And of course, they've not only happily spent that, but demanded more. Constantly.
The UK Treasury gave the SNP government all the money it wanted, did it?
When did the UK government and the SNP government discuss and agree on how much 'pocket money' the Scottish government receives from the UK Treasury?
Has the 'Barnett formula' been changed since the SNP came to office in 2007?
As a 'proud' and 'patriotic' Scot, you want the Scottish government NOT TO SPEND ITS MONEY FOR SCOTLAND but to return it to the UK Treasury, like a previous Labour government in Scotland?
YOU ARE THE BIGGEST LIAR AND HYPOCRITE ON THIS THREAD.
Original post by Maths Tutor
The UK Treasury gave the SNP government all the money it wanted, did it?
When did the UK government and the SNP government discuss and agree on how much 'pocket money' the Scottish government receives from the UK Treasury?
Has the 'Barnett formula' been changed since the SNP came to office in 2007?
As a 'proud' and 'patriotic' Scot, you want the Scottish government NOT TO SPEND ITS MONEY FOR SCOTLAND but to return it to the UK Treasury, like a previous Labour government in Scotland?
YOU ARE THE BIGGEST LIAR AND HYPOCRITE ON THIS THREAD.
Can you tell me what the three dark red squares are next to your name? What dies that indicate?
Original post by MatureStudent36
Can you tell me what the three dark red squares are next to your name? What dies that indicate?
It indicates that liars and hypocrites like YOURSELF, L i b, Midlander, etc. hound pro-Independence posters on this thread by twisting their posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
Original post by Maths Tutor
It indicates that liars and hypocrites like YOURSELF, L i b, Midlander, etc. hound pro-Independence posters on this thread by twisting their posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
I'm not twisting your posts. You stopped making coherent posts in May. You've become a little bit of a wild card for your cause since then.
They've stopped allowing negative posts. To be honest though I never use them. I guess it must be the other people that you're trying to reach out to giving you negative posts.
Have you seen the poll rests at the top off the page? I'm surprised that you haven't got the cyberNat community or the national collective to try and skew it by now.
It wasn't lib who got your posts removed. It was me. I was sick and tired of you spamming this site. I'd do the same if somebody from the BT campaign did it.
if you want to have a debate. Then debate. Please don't just cut and past from a pitot ally motivated website. That's just spamming.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Maths Tutor
The UK Treasury gave the SNP government all the money it wanted, did it?
No, and rightly so - which is establishing my point: that the SNP government is fiscally irresponsible. We are exceptionally lucky that the SNP wasn't in government in an independent or fiscally autonomous Scotland as we would find ourselves in a far worse position than we are today.
As a 'proud' and 'patriotic' Scot, you want the Scottish government NOT TO SPEND ITS MONEY FOR SCOTLAND but to return it to the UK Treasury, like a previous Labour government in Scotland?]
Actually yes, I would have supported doing exactly that.
And I'm not remotely 'proud' to be Scottish. I'm mildly patriotic at times, but I don't take it remotely seriously or let it affect my politics.
Original post by Maths Tutor
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
Or you can pay for a subscription and find out for yourself.
The one thing about nutters on the internet: they tend to be pretty cheap.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Maths Tutor
It indicates that liars and hypocrites like YOURSELF, L i b, Midlander, etc. hound pro-Independence posters on this thread by twisting their posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
You have constantly ignored basic questions on the SNP's lies to Scotland and likened one poster to the Nazis.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
It indicates that liars and hypocrites like YOURSELF, L i b, Midlander, etc. hound pro-Independence posters on this thread by twisting their posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.
Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.
I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
Can I suggest not making untrue accusations against myself and the moderation team. If you have an issue then raise it in AAM.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Aj12
Can I suggest not making untrue accusations against myself and the moderation team. If you have an issue then raise it in AAM.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
I have an issue with the moderation team. Why did they get rid of the thumbs down icon?
On a more positive point though, when I use my Iphone now and click on a thread it takes me straight to the last page of a thread so I don't need to look at the first page.
So basically it measures out. You've counter acted your ying with a yang.
You guys are doing a great job. Carry on.
Bet the OP has wrote a PhD on this now.
Original post by Maths Tutor
We are talking about the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / TRILLION POUNDS PLUS NATIONAL DEBT which exists NOW.
How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?
Clue:
Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:
- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)
- Alastair Darling (New Labour)
- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?
Clue:
Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:
- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)
- Alastair Darling (New Labour)
- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
Actually thats now what we are talking about, thats what you're talking about.
That would make sense if the SNP underspends its block grant to run what would be a neutral budget.
You're against the budget deficit the Coalition is running then? An independent Scotland would be budget neutral/run a surplus?
I have to say I don't rememebr seeing the SNP calling for greater cuts or major tax rises over the last 15 years.
I also don't remember them calling for greater regulation of BoS or RBS before they went belly-up. tbh they were pretty quiet on the idea of subsequent bail out which cost a few pennies.
basically your aguement seems to be that because the SNP hasn't run the UK economy there is nothign to demonstrate they would be bad at running an economy like Scotland if they were able to do so?
The same could be said of the Green Party or Screaming Lord Such.
It seems they can't even guestimate costs for transition, let alone come up with a tax and spend framework for Scotland. Perhaps we'll see in the next month or so but I'd be interested to know the income tax regieme an independent Scotland would run.
Original post by Maths Tutor
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
I've never been anything else than honest. Are you now going to start calling me a liar and a hypocrite?
When are you going to start answering questions rather than asking questions that lead us nowhere?
No, it is not and I didn't say that. I was talking about Sterling as you very well know
You were talking about sterling in the context of independence., and stated that
it will not make much difference IN THE SHORT TERM AT LEAST if Scotland has to bear the monetary policy of a 'foreign country' without a currency union.
I was merely pointing out that independence is a long term venture and short term measures don't seem very sensible, and certainly not a good basis for the future. What do you propose as Scotland's currency for the long term? The obvious candidates are (a) a Scottish independent currency, (b) the euro (with no Scottish influence worth speaking of) or (c) sterling (again, with no influence). None of these seems very attractive.
A contradiction only arises if you distort what I wrote.
I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.
POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:
a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;
OR
b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.
POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:
a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;
OR
b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
There is no doubt that the UK will not want to handicap a key instrument of its financial policy by giving a foreign country direct influence over sterling. We have avoided the euro for this very reason. I can see no benefit to the UK for an independent Scotland to be given such power.
If an independent Scotland wishes to use sterling it will have to be as a hanger-on with no influence on its value, and with no influence on its effect on Scottish exports and imports.
The Scottish economy will become far too heavily influenced by oil and gas prices for it to remain synchronised with the UK for very long, and far more subject to currency ups and downs. For the BoE to look after the Scottish economy would be folly.
I've always been unclear why anyone in favour of independence would want to use either sterling or the euro, both of which involve less independence rather than more (the one being controlled by a UK with no interest in Scotland's needs, the other by Germany).
On a separate matter, I find it peculiar that no pro-independence poster has come forward to comment on why they think the UK will want its warships to be built abroad after independence. Or how Scotland would have a need to share destroyers, as advocated by the SNP, or how this might work. What need will Scotland have, given the defence budget it will have, for such warships?
Original post by Good bloke
Or how Scotland would have a need to share destroyers, as advocated by the SNP, or how this might work. What need will Scotland have, given the defence budget it will have, for such warships?
This is the bizzare one, I thought the idea was Scotland would be more pacifist than the rUK so instruments of war (and expensive ones too) wouldn't be commissioned by an independent Scotland.
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