Can we talk about the 40% PGCE drop out rate? Anyone here dropped out?
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Original post by Shelly_x
I love your enthusiasm but I think you have to consider that those hyper, badly behaved kids will most likely turn around and tell you to shove it and storm out of your class. Unfortunately you can't force some students to learn or to listen. And no matter how much you think they would enjoy your subject there is every likelyhood that you will be told that it is rubbish and 'why do we even have to learn this?' on a weekly, if not daily basis.
Not trying to put you down, just trying to show you the realities of state schools in England
Not trying to put you down, just trying to show you the realities of state schools in England
That should probably read "hourly basis". But yes, that's about the size of it.
Why is the drop out rate so high?
For the PGCE year it's probably the lack of preparation you generally get before your first placement and then it very much depends where you are sent. It's stressful anyway - but get someone who enjoys tearing strips off you and being nothing but negative (unreasonably so - you will need to change a lot to be a good teacher) and it's nothing more than bullying. Rather unsurprisingly these teachers often demonstrate poor subject knowledge and lack of consistency (which leads to behavioural problems). If you're going to local uni then try to get a placement agreed in principal with your experience school and you'll save yourself a lot of grief.
For the PGCE year it's probably the lack of preparation you generally get before your first placement and then it very much depends where you are sent. It's stressful anyway - but get someone who enjoys tearing strips off you and being nothing but negative (unreasonably so - you will need to change a lot to be a good teacher) and it's nothing more than bullying. Rather unsurprisingly these teachers often demonstrate poor subject knowledge and lack of consistency (which leads to behavioural problems). If you're going to local uni then try to get a placement agreed in principal with your experience school and you'll save yourself a lot of grief.
Original post by FilmExpert
Thank you for the honest response. When you were having that really horrible first year, did you tell people around you about it? Did your friends know? Did they know how hard it was for you? That you considered/consider quitting? Everyone I know in teaching seems really unhappy but never talks about it. Then I read stuff like this and wonder if it is right for me.
For me, it started as 'I don't know what else to do, it's either this secure career choice or I fleet around in minimum wage jobs or unemployment'
but since getting teaching experience it has turned into 'Hey, I can actually see myself doing this'. Now I enjoy it and want to do it. But I wonder if I have enough passion to see me through the tough times.
For me, it started as 'I don't know what else to do, it's either this secure career choice or I fleet around in minimum wage jobs or unemployment'
but since getting teaching experience it has turned into 'Hey, I can actually see myself doing this'. Now I enjoy it and want to do it. But I wonder if I have enough passion to see me through the tough times.
Sorry I didn't answer last night. I'm afraid I went to bed, because that's what teachers do midweek. And then more so at the weekend. When I was having my horrible first your, I told everybody - that's the kind of person I am - and everyone else was having a horrible first year as well, because the first year just IS horrible.
TBH, I am not at all sure I would recommend teaching as a profession these days. Perhaps you shouldn't listen to someone as old and jaded as me, though. Things have changed so much, and not for the better, that it's hard not to be cynical. Perhaps you should ask someone who isn't in mourning for the days when you were treated as something more than a political football. Oh, don't get me started....
Original post by Juichiro
Jesus Christ, this is so depressing. 
I don't know what to say. I volunteer in two schools: one wonderful, the other one not that wonderful. In the wonderful school, kids are nice and while the lessons are fast paced and really dynamic, I see myself standing there delivering the lessons (which I will soon do as a volunteer 
). In the not wonderful school, I see myself as more of a game changer, as a crazy optimistic which is going to show those bored kids why I think my subject is the place to be. No boring irrelevant stuff but things that make you thrill and chill and laugh and cry. If I am ever a teacher in a tough school, I will want to get those hyperactive bad-behaved kids sat down to listen in an informal way why I (not as a teacher but as a person who has been a student like them) think they should listen to what I have to say. Because what I have to say is something they will like, something they will love. I will infuse interest and motivation within them.
I don't know what to say. I volunteer in two schools: one wonderful, the other one not that wonderful. In the wonderful school, kids are nice and while the lessons are fast paced and really dynamic, I see myself standing there delivering the lessons (which I will soon do as a volunteer ). In the not wonderful school, I see myself as more of a game changer, as a crazy optimistic which is going to show those bored kids why I think my subject is the place to be. No boring irrelevant stuff but things that make you thrill and chill and laugh and cry. If I am ever a teacher in a tough school, I will want to get those hyperactive bad-behaved kids sat down to listen in an informal way why I (not as a teacher but as a person who has been a student like them) think they should listen to what I have to say. Because what I have to say is something they will like, something they will love. I will infuse interest and motivation within them.You make me want to cry. I love your idealism and am so sorry that you will find that it doesn't work like that and it's not how you imagine. If you go into this, go with your eyes open. Do remember that the rest of us have tried to do this as well.
Original post by Shelly_x
I love your enthusiasm but I think you have to consider that those hyper, badly behaved kids will most likely turn around and tell you to shove it and storm out of your class. Unfortunately you can't force some students to learn or to listen. And no matter how much you think they would enjoy your subject there is every likelyhood that you will be told that it is rubbish and 'why do we even have to learn this?' on a weekly, if not daily basis.
Not trying to put you down, just trying to show you the realities of state schools in England
Not trying to put you down, just trying to show you the realities of state schools in England
You are quite right.
I do worry about the high drop out rates and have the odd wobble of "can I do this" but working in a school alongside both NQTs and experienced teachers in my subject just makes me all the more determined.
I know I want to be an RE teacher, I want to try my level best to at least help *some* children to see the beauty and relevance of the subject. Of course you will never win them all. I'm already asked on a daily basis what the point of studying RE is and know it will only get worse if I'm teaching it!
Really though I can't predict the future and maybe one day I won't be able to take it, but right now I know I want this more than anything and am prepared to give it everything I have in me and more - and what more can you do than that?
I know I want to be an RE teacher, I want to try my level best to at least help *some* children to see the beauty and relevance of the subject. Of course you will never win them all. I'm already asked on a daily basis what the point of studying RE is and know it will only get worse if I'm teaching it!
Really though I can't predict the future and maybe one day I won't be able to take it, but right now I know I want this more than anything and am prepared to give it everything I have in me and more - and what more can you do than that?
Original post by carnationlilyrose
TBH, I am not at all sure I would recommend teaching as a profession these days. Perhaps you shouldn't listen to someone as old and jaded as me, though. Things have changed so much, and not for the better, that it's hard not to be cynical. Perhaps you should ask someone who isn't in mourning for the days when you were treated as something more than a political football. Oh, don't get me started....
I thought I was a bit disillusioned but you seem in a worse place than me and I'm beginning to get a bit worried about you. Make sure you plan something nice for yourself as a survival reward over Christmas.
Original post by Mr M
I thought I was a bit disillusioned but you seem in a worse place than me and I'm beginning to get a bit worried about you. Make sure you plan something nice for yourself as a survival reward over Christmas.
Oh dear, have I been moaning too much again?! I'm probably older than you, so it may be the nearness of retirement. I really shouldn't moan so much. I teach great kids and have great colleagues. It's just that we have a new broom at the top sweeping clean and making those of us who've been around the block a few times and seen it all before feel rather undervalued and extremely cynical. When you've seen all these 'innovations' fail once or twice before, it's hard to fake any enthusiasm. I shall be quite all right with a bit of a break. Thanks for your concern! We need to stick together!
Original post by carnationlilyrose
Oh dear, have I been moaning too much again?! I'm probably older than you, so it may be the nearness of retirement. I really shouldn't moan so much. I teach great kids and have great colleagues. It's just that we have a new broom at the top sweeping clean and making those of us who've been around the block a few times and seen it all before feel rather undervalued and extremely cynical. When you've seen all these 'innovations' fail once or twice before, it's hard to fake any enthusiasm. I shall be quite all right with a bit of a break. Thanks for your concern! We need to stick together!
May I ask how old are you roughly? Also I would like to hear the story of your life from the moment you applied for a PGCE. Either on this thread or by PM.
Thanks!
Original post by Juichiro
May I ask how old are you roughly? Also I would like to hear the story of your life from the moment you applied for a PGCE. Either on this thread or by PM.
Thanks!
Thanks!
I'm not in any way interesting! Mid 50s.
Original post by carnationlilyrose
I'm not in any way interesting! Mid 50s.
For me you really are. I found your comments quite insightful. I would really like to hear what you have to say. I won't insist if you don't want though.
Original post by Juichiro
For me you really are. I found your comments quite insightful. I would really like to hear what you have to say. I won't insist if you don't want though.
I haven't anything insightful to say, but pm me if you wish.
One girl has already dropped out of my course this year (secondary English PGCE) so 25 has become 24. She said she hated the school she was placed in and the kids were victimising her. Two other girls have cried at Uni and thought about quitting too.
I've had moments so far where I've thought am I cut out for this? But not nearly as many times as I've thought 'I absolutely love this'. I'm in a really challenging first placement and some people on my course come in to Uni and say they teach angels in really nice schools! That can be tough to hear but I think when they go on their second placement they might be in for a shock.
Not once thought about quitting - at the end of the day even if you did hate it it's a year of your life. The most likely alternative is you'd be unemployed or struggling in another poorly paid job you hate.
It isn't for everyone so people who decide it isn't for them after several months, fair enough. I understand what people are saying about having idealistic visions though; the majority of kids are nice and show willingness to learn, even in difficult schools but every class has those 2,3,4 pupils that simply don't give one ****. You can't sanction them to get them to work because they don't give a toss and their parents don't give a toss. They will do no work, tell you your lesson or the subject is boring and try and distract the rest of the class. That's the reality.
I've had moments so far where I've thought am I cut out for this? But not nearly as many times as I've thought 'I absolutely love this'. I'm in a really challenging first placement and some people on my course come in to Uni and say they teach angels in really nice schools! That can be tough to hear but I think when they go on their second placement they might be in for a shock.
Not once thought about quitting - at the end of the day even if you did hate it it's a year of your life. The most likely alternative is you'd be unemployed or struggling in another poorly paid job you hate.
It isn't for everyone so people who decide it isn't for them after several months, fair enough. I understand what people are saying about having idealistic visions though; the majority of kids are nice and show willingness to learn, even in difficult schools but every class has those 2,3,4 pupils that simply don't give one ****. You can't sanction them to get them to work because they don't give a toss and their parents don't give a toss. They will do no work, tell you your lesson or the subject is boring and try and distract the rest of the class. That's the reality.
Original post by Steveluis10
the majority of kids are nice
Worth remembering this. When people say "I couldn't teach because I couldn't put up with the bad behaviour" I always reply "most children are nice, most of the time". In each class you might have one or two who are genuinely unpleasant and, if you are lucky and your SLT effective, you might only witness frighteningly psychotic behaviour a few times in your career.
Original post by Mr M
Worth remembering this. When people say "I couldn't teach because I couldn't put up with the bad behaviour" I always reply "most children are nice, most of the time". In each class you might have one or two who are genuinely unpleasant and, if you are lucky and your SLT effective, you might only witness frighteningly psychotic behaviour a few times in your career.
Yes, this is very true. All my pupils this year are delightful. I am lucky enough to enjoy my time in the classroom 90% of the time. Meetings, INSET, all that stuff, not so much. More psychotic behaviour outside the classroom than in it, tbh!
Original post by Mr M
Worth remembering this. When people say "I couldn't teach because I couldn't put up with the bad behaviour" I always reply "most children are nice, most of the time". In each class you might have one or two who are genuinely unpleasant and, if you are lucky and your SLT effective, you might only witness frighteningly psychotic behaviour a few times in your career.
???
Original post by carnationlilyrose
I haven't anything insightful to say, but pm me if you wish.
Thank you.
Original post by Juichiro
???
SLT = Senior Leadership Team
Original post by Juichiro
???
Head, deputies, assistant heads, bursar, that kind of thing.
Certainly a sobering thread, guys! P:
I don't think I'm under any blinding illusions as to what will happen when my course hopefully begins, because I try not to have any real expectations. I am determined to make it as easy as possible for myself by cutting off all distractions and making sure my partner, working elsewhere, is on board for the year emotionally and understands the limiting timetable I'll likely have. I'm not imagining a first classroom too much, and I'm not attempting to envision myself changing the lives of the children I come into contact with. Equally, obviously, I'm ignoring any thought of dropping out or bowing under pressure. I know that I can take a great many terrible times and experiences because I have before and will again, and I think the money and time being put into something such as a teacher training course is far too valuable to give up before its over. I am determined to take each day as it comes, to absolutely freaking relish the good things, and to have a really brilliant cry about anything bad - and then to go to sleep and attempt to forget/overcome it somehow the next day. Full-picture realism is the only thing I want to be thinking when I start... so hopefully I will.
Thank you, though, for all the honest responses here. I think it's very good to have this side of the argument available. I especially value the opinions of current working teachers towards the education politics going on, so feel free to embellish on that! I would enjoy reading further thoughts.
I don't think I'm under any blinding illusions as to what will happen when my course hopefully begins, because I try not to have any real expectations. I am determined to make it as easy as possible for myself by cutting off all distractions and making sure my partner, working elsewhere, is on board for the year emotionally and understands the limiting timetable I'll likely have. I'm not imagining a first classroom too much, and I'm not attempting to envision myself changing the lives of the children I come into contact with. Equally, obviously, I'm ignoring any thought of dropping out or bowing under pressure. I know that I can take a great many terrible times and experiences because I have before and will again, and I think the money and time being put into something such as a teacher training course is far too valuable to give up before its over. I am determined to take each day as it comes, to absolutely freaking relish the good things, and to have a really brilliant cry about anything bad - and then to go to sleep and attempt to forget/overcome it somehow the next day. Full-picture realism is the only thing I want to be thinking when I start... so hopefully I will.
Thank you, though, for all the honest responses here. I think it's very good to have this side of the argument available. I especially value the opinions of current working teachers towards the education politics going on, so feel free to embellish on that! I would enjoy reading further thoughts.
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