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Original post by bammy jastard 27

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TL;DR it's not a question of mentality, it's due to the fact our players aren't currently good enough to hold onto leads or finish games off early by a surplus of goals. If we get that midfield man and he performs, we'll be sorted in at least one of those avenues if not both.

United are currently going through the same problem this season now they're not getting as many goals. I said on that thread on the defeat to liverpool they needed two midfield players, now I believe that we need the same thing, although a striker and a midfielder would do more good than 2 competent midfielders.


Yeah sounds bout right. You lack a CM who can pace the game imo. So when team's start getting at you, you lose rhythm entirely and havent got someone to get things ticking again.Also means you cant take the sting out of games at all, so 1-0 up you still have Rameires making surging counter attacks when you need someone to play simple. Also, you used to have powerful players like Essien/Makalele who would just impose themselves on the game and wouldnt relent. Need one or both of these types to get going.

I know lots of Chelsea fans like Rameires and they obviously know the ins and outs of his game better, but personally I dont see what's so great about him. Would ditch him and Lampard and bring maybe a Lars Bender/Gundogan combo. Would give you control in midfield again.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 9141
Original post by Zürich
Yeah sounds bout right. You lack a CM who can pace the game imo. So when team's start getting at you, you lose rhythm entirely and havent got someone to get things ticking again. Alternatively you used to have powerful players like Essien/Makalele who would just impose themselves on the game and wouldnt relent. Need one or both of these types to get going.

I know lots of Chelsea fans like Rameires and they obviously know the ins and outs of his game better, but personally I dont see what's so great about him. Would ditch him and Lampard and bring maybe a Lars Bender/Gundogan combo. Would give you control in midfield again.


Yeah, agree here. A guy named Cable was saying on the old Chelsea thread a year ago that if we think we're going to control a midfield with Mikel and Ramires there we're crazy. He's right tbh.

Ramires, weird player, important to the team, but it's only because the rest of our team have no energy in midfield, Oscar isn't strong or physical enough to play in that role, although he's positionally aware and has good work rate. A lampard-Mikel midfield is too slow and isn't physically imposing as they're not the most proactive tacklers. This is where Ramires is vital, while he's not great at anything, he's the only person who can fulfil that role.

We're in for Guarin, who I rate a lot, his only problem is consistency, but he has the talent to be a world class player, which is better than what I can say for ramires or Mikel, while Lamps isn't a DM.
Original post by 9MmBulletz
After seeing Willian play for us on a few occasions now, i think he has it too. He doesn't run past defenders as much as Hazard, but he has the pace and control to keep hold of the ball. And he isn't too bad at picking out a pass. Having Willian, Mata, Hazard and Oscar is always going to cause a selection dilemma


Yes, I very much agree. He has an assertiveness that too many of our players lack (all three of our forwards, Mikel, Schurrle, de Bruyne). This is not to say that the aforementioned are bad players; just that they don't seem to have the confidence or initiative (as well as, yes, the technical and physical quality) to take the outcome of a game on their shoulders.

Original post by bammy jastard 27

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Original post by Zürich
Yeah sounds bout right. You lack a CM who can pace the game imo. So when team's start getting at you, you lose rhythm entirely and havent got someone to get things ticking again.Also means you cant take the sting out of games at all, so 1-0 up you still have Rameires making surging counter attacks when you need someone to play simple. Also, you used to have powerful players like Essien/Makalele who would just impose themselves on the game and wouldnt relent. Need one or both of these types to get going.

I know lots of Chelsea fans like Rameires and they obviously know the ins and outs of his game better, but personally I dont see what's so great about him. Would ditch him and Lampard and bring maybe a Lars Bender/Gundogan combo. Would give you control in midfield again.


I have maintained, and always shall, that Ramires is too limited to ever be a very top player. What he does, he does well - but there's not the range to his game that a really top midfielder should have. I think he's a player we very much want to keep and use, because at his best he offers a drive and purpose that's very valuable, but he has neither the composure nor the passing range to control the midfield on our terms - which, as a side who wants to try and dominate teams, is very unhelpful.
Original post by Zürich
Yeah sounds bout right. You lack a CM who can pace the game imo. So when team's start getting at you, you lose rhythm entirely and havent got someone to get things ticking again.Also means you cant take the sting out of games at all, so 1-0 up you still have Rameires making surging counter attacks when you need someone to play simple. Also, you used to have powerful players like Essien/Makalele who would just impose themselves on the game and wouldnt relent. Need one or both of these types to get going.

I know lots of Chelsea fans like Rameires and they obviously know the ins and outs of his game better, but personally I dont see what's so great about him. Would ditch him and Lampard and bring maybe a Lars Bender/Gundogan combo. Would give you control in midfield again.


I have maintained, and always shall, that Ramires is too limited to ever be a very top player. What he does, he does well - but there's not the range to his game that a really top midfielder should have. I think he's a player we very much want to keep and use, because at his best he offers a drive and purpose that's very valuable, but he has neither the composure nor the passing range to control the midfield on our terms - which, as a side who wants to try and dominate teams, is very unhelpful.
Not sure why there are so many people who rate him so highly either. Then when you say he can't shoot efficiently e.g people would just bring up that Barca goal over and over again (had this today actually).

However, he does have good driving runs through midfield which help whenever there's a transition. If he was alongside someone who can provide a better link to the attacking trio, more incisive passes etc. we'd do better but then we'd struggle if we get broken on. Of course we should just upgrade the pairing itself though.

Fantastic comment btw, KM.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by The Assassin
Not sure why there are so many people who rate him so highly either. Then when you say he can't shoot efficiently e.g people would just bring up that Barca goal over and over again (had this today actually).

However, he does have good driving runs through midfield which help whenever there's a transition. If he was alongside someone who can provide a better link to the attacking trio, more incisive passes etc. we'd do better but then we'd struggle if we get broken on. Of course we should just upgrade the pairing itself though.


The number of wasteful long shots Ramires takes is incredibly pernicious. They regularly do nothing but return possession to the opposition via a goal kick or a block. I just can't fathom where he got the idea that shooting from range well is an attribute he possesses.
Reply 9147
Original post by The Assassin
. If he was alongside someone who can provide a better link to the attacking trio, more incisive passes etc. we'd do better

One can say the same about mikel. If he had a player who was more incisive with his passing and would burst forward with pace(like Gundogan) we'd be better.
If we had a master of all trades(like gerrard in 05 or toni kroos) then he'd be able to bring the best out of mikel or ramires.
Reply 9148
Original post by The Assassin
. If he was alongside someone who can provide a better link to the attacking trio, more incisive passes etc. we'd do better

One can say the same about mikel. If he had a player who was more incisive with his passing and would burst forward with pace(like Gundogan) we'd be better.
If we had a master of all trades(like gerrard in 05 or toni kroos) then he'd be able to bring the best out of mikel or ramires.
Original post by KingMessi
Yes, I very much agree. He has an assertiveness that too many of our players lack (all three of our forwards, Mikel, Schurrle, de Bruyne). This is not to say that the aforementioned are bad players; just that they don't seem to have the confidence or initiative (as well as, yes, the technical and physical quality) to take the outcome of a game on their shoulders.



Spoiler


I agree here. I feel that maybe we don't feel like we can win games as easily as possible, I think two and two goes together though. You see the belief in that dortmund side, to the point of almost arrogance, they'll scrape through the next round in the CL, face an even harder opposition and still get past. While I think that dortmund are no stronger than Arsenal a couple years back or the current Arsenal squad, that mentality probably is what has taken them to that new level. Which like you say we lack somewhat.

They face a stronger bayern munich side in personnel and generally they gave them a game to struggle. I think that goes down to their success, but also goes down to their work rate and personnel.
Original post by bammy jastard 27
One can say the same about mikel. If he had a player who was more incisive with his passing and would burst forward with pace(like Gundogan) we'd be better.
If we had a master of all trades(like gerrard in 05 or toni kroos) then he'd be able to bring the best out of mikel or ramires.

I agree here. I feel that maybe we don't feel like we can win games as easily as possible, I think two and two goes together though. You see the belief in that dortmund side, to the point of almost arrogance, they'll scrape through the next round in the CL, face an even harder opposition and still get past. While I think that dortmund are no stronger than Arsenal a couple years back or the current Arsenal squad, that mentality probably is what has taken them to that new level. Which like you say we lack somewhat.

They face a stronger bayern munich side in personnel and generally they gave them a game to struggle. I think that goes down to their success, but also goes down to their work rate and personnel.


Mmm. We approach every game like it's going to be a struggle. A poster (I can't remember who right now) said a page or two ago that he didn't enjoy watching our games anymore because of this - and I can empathise with that. Entitlement in a football fan is a dangerous and often irritating trait, but whilst one needs to be aware of the (obviously) competitive nature of every sport, it is equally true that, as a fan of a good side, there is something pleasant about seeing a bottom-six team on the fixture list and thinking 'that should be a straightforward 3-0, hopefully'. Chelsea haven't, as far as I recall, done so once this season. Sure, it's ridiculous to expect nineteen home wins or to expect us to trounce every small team, but...I'm sure you get my point. :redface:

And obviously mentality and quality exist in a symbiotic relationship, which makes it impossible to distinguish the need to improve one from the need to improve the other. But, lest we get stuck going around in circles identifying problems, I suppose this is what naturally follows:

What, realistically, do you think we can or should do over the next six weeks to try and rectify the problems we've identified? For example, I don't think that signing Gundogan is realistic in the short-term.
Reply 9150
Original post by KingMessi
Mmm. We approach every game like it's going to be a struggle. A poster (I can't remember who right now) said a page or two ago that he didn't enjoy watching our games anymore because of this - and I can empathise with that. Entitlement in a football fan is a dangerous and often irritating trait, but whilst one needs to be aware of the (obviously) competitive nature of every sport, it is equally true that, as a fan of a good side, there is something pleasant about seeing a bottom-six team on the fixture list and thinking 'that should be a straightforward 3-0, hopefully'. Chelsea haven't, as far as I recall, done so once this season. Sure, it's ridiculous to expect nineteen home wins or to expect us to trounce every small team, but...I'm sure you get my point. :redface:

And obviously mentality and quality exist in a symbiotic relationship, which makes it impossible to distinguish the need to improve one from the need to improve the other. But, lest we get stuck going around in circles identifying problems, I suppose this is what naturally follows:

What, realistically, do you think we can or should do over the next six weeks to try and rectify the problems we've identified? For example, I don't think that signing Gundogan is realistic in the short-term.

Yeah, I get your point haha.

Like you said that the thing about the mentality, there's only so much a good work ethic will take you, like the kid who revises all day and gets a 2:1 while the other guy lazes around all day and gets the same mark because he's innately clever.

I think we can get a midfielder in, whether it be a guy like Guarin or Cabaye with potential to be world class or even a world class signing. I think that we'll definitely get the midfield player in however. The second Mourinho bids for an actual player and it goes public, he'll do his utmost to get a player of that calibre, hence why he went for eto'o when we didn't get rooney.

I would also like to see another striker come in, but that's wishful thinking and due to the inflation in the january transfer window and likely striker signings being cup tied for the CL I don't think there any point in doing so. Overall though, Guarin or Cabaye to come in early on in the window will satisfy me for this window. It's a problem that needs to be immediately rectified if we want to keep up the title challenge.
Reply 9151
Lol a Bender/Gundogan combo would be incredible, but its a bit of a pipe dream. I think Ramires is great in his own way, for certain matches, but its a sad state of affairs when he's a nailed on starter for nearly every game because some of the technical aspects of his game are very subpar or at least incredibly inconsistent.

Its a pity we loaned out Romeu & that Van Ginkel got injured. This would be the perfect circumstances for one of them to nail on a spot in the side.
I've wanted Cabaye too. Although Newcastle will not want to sell, I can see him wanting to go to a bigger club now that he's in the peak of his career.
Reply 9153
Original post by Isometrix
I've wanted Cabaye too. Although Newcastle will not want to sell, I can see him wanting to go to a bigger club now that he's in the peak of his career.

Newcastle will sell, if we put the money in.

Plus Cabaye said that he misses the CL
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11678/9043368/transfer-news-newcastle-midfielder-yohan-cabaye-misses-champions-league
Just a month ago. Plus he was going to move to arsenal, so it's not like we can't get him if we wanted to. I think that Mike Ashley likes to milk money out of the buying club so he can invest in replacements in the squad, essentially Daniel Levy mkII
I don''t think our squad depth last year was that bad. We had Moses and Marin to come on. It's a shame that Marin got injured (and lost form) and Moses was used well by Benitez i thought.

We had like 75 games to play last year, so we dropped quite a few points because of our intensive fixture list. Remember, we lost 1-0 to QPR at home (stupid result) and shouldn've beaten them away when we had a clear penalty turned down. Then there were the Liverpol fixtures which we should've won at least one of. The 1-1 draw at the Bridge should have been a victory but we were so wasteful after going 1-0 up. Torres, Oscar, Mata all had chances to finish them off. Even the Anfield game we should've seen out, but we conceded with like 30 seconds to go. To be fair at Anfield, Liverpool probably would've felt hard done by if they lost that. When we drew with Tottenham 2-2 we had the same problem in terms of not putting the game to bed. Tottenham weren't really in it until they scored and even when we made it 2-1, we had chances to send them packing. So I think this problem of not being able to kill teams off comes from last year too.
Reply 9155
Can't wait for this match, let's have it already. DISTURBINNGGG LANDDANNN.
Cole back on the bench so Azpi on the left again. Ffs.

Original post by Mr_Vain
Can't wait for this match, let's have it already. DISTURBINNGGG LANDDANNN.


looking forward to it. Hope the atmosphere's good!
Original post by The Assassin
Cole back on the bench so Azpi on the left again. Ffs.



looking forward to it. Hope the atmosphere's good!


Atmosphere at the Emirates extremely volatile this season. Spurs probs the best league match for it ive seen ever since we moved and Napoli for example was buzzing but other times actually been worse than normal. The CC game vs Chelsea were we gave you 9k was probably a new low for the Emirates atmosphere. ****ing hell that was bad.

It's a huge game and late at night before Christmas so the fans should be nicely bevied up in the pubs beforehand for it though :smile:
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 9158
Ivanovic, Cahill,Terry and Azpi all starting. It's a shame coz I was looking forward to Ashley putting in a top performance against his old club, oh well. Speaking of which apparently Ashley Cole, Bertrand and Schurrle were all at the Arsenal Christmas party


Mourinho on Ashley Cole's role vs Arsenal: "On the bench or at home." #CFC


Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Skkc16
Ivanovic, Cahill,Terry and Azpi all starting. It's a shame coz I was looking forward to Ashley putting in a top performance against his old club, oh well. Speaking of which apparently Ashley Cole, Bertrand and Schurrle were all at the Arsenal Christmas party


Mourinho on Ashley Cole's role vs Arsenal: "On the bench or at home." #CFC


Posted from TSR Mobile


Apparently he was out drinking with Schurrle and Bertrand with some of the Arsenal players at some party. Mourinho wasn't a happy bunny mind and hence he's not in the team

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