Is Scottish independence a &#x27;good or bad&#x27; thing?

Original post by Smack

Which is not about the university system itself but rather how the respective governments/student loans organisations fund students.

Not that this has anything to do with my original post that you replied to...

Well that's essentially the only difference except most people at Scottish unis take a year longer. My reply was solely to differentiate between RUK and England which are intermingled too often.

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Reply 4642

Original post by Quady

The UK has a deficit and aging population - not too sure what the difference between Scotland and the rest is on that... particularly given Scotland has a shorter life expectancy, so the pension problem currently can't be as bad.

To quote the National Records of Scotland, the government agency that deals with these sorts of things here, the Scottish population is “projected to age more rapidly compared to the UK”. It's not even by a statistically small sum and it's heavily weighted to the oldest age groups.

But that's only half the problem. Accompanying this, we also have a proportionately decreasing workforce who are expected to keep our pensioners - again, doing worse than the UK average.

So it is already a greater problem for Scotland, even if you count dying early as positive in these terms - and is projected to get much worse.

When you say 'they' do you mean the SNP? I think a lot of people are missing that indpendence is one vote, the colour of the Government in such an independent Scotland is a subsequent vote.

The SNP and even the Yes campaign are selling their vision for an independent Scotland as having certain policy principles. I oppose their proposition on that basis.

Were they to play a straight "Scotland is a nation and, regardless of any consequences to follow, should be independent" then I'd happily oppose it solely on ideological grounds. But policy is part and parcel of this debate.

Reply 4643

JamesyC

10

Original post by L i b

To quote the National Records of Scotland, the government agency that deals with these sorts of things here, the Scottish population is “projected to age more rapidly compared to the UK”. It's not even by a statistically small sum and it's heavily weighted to the oldest age groups.

But that's only half the problem. Accompanying this, we also have a proportionately decreasing workforce who are expected to keep our pensioners - again, doing worse than the UK average.

So it is already a greater problem for Scotland, even if you count dying early as positive in these terms - and is projected to get much worse.

The SNP and even the Yes campaign are selling their vision for an independent Scotland as having certain policy principles. I oppose their proposition on that basis.

Were they to play a straight "Scotland is a nation and, regardless of any consequences to follow, should be independent" then I'd happily oppose it solely on ideological grounds. But policy is part and parcel of this debate.

Its something you tend to see from many separatist movements around the world. The future of the country is their vision, dictated by their policy (even in the world of western democracy). Why should you be surprised?

I'll admit, if I were Scottish I would vote Yes, the SNP are doing a better job of running Scotland than SF/DUP are in NI, and the Conservatives are in England/Wales. That would most likely change with independence, as is the case with all parties in Government for too long. Whats lacking is a Yes movement that isn't aligned to the SNP!

Reply 4644

Original post by JamesyC

Its something you tend to see from many separatist movements around the world. The future of the country is their vision, dictated by their policy (even in the world of western democracy). Why should you be surprised?

I'll admit, if I were Scottish I would vote Yes, the SNP are doing a better job of running Scotland than SF/DUP are in NI, and the Conservatives are in England/Wales. That would most likely change with independence, as is the case with all parties in Government for too long. Whats lacking is a Yes movement that isn't aligned to the SNP!

Wales is governed by Labour.

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Reply 4645

Original post by JamesyC

I'll admit, if I were Scottish I would vote Yes, the SNP are doing a better job of running Scotland than SF/DUP are in NI, and the Conservatives are in England/Wales. That would most likely change with independence, as is the case with all parties in Government for too long. Whats lacking is a Yes movement that isn't aligned to the SNP!

Are they? To me, they seem quite amateurish. Particularly given that there is £1,600 extra public spending assigned for every single person in Scotland above that of a person in England. Are Scottish people really getting their £1,600 worth?

When given control over business taxation, in this case business rates, the SNP have put them up. They've spent money on middle-class benefits despite pressing poverty and health inequality. They've spent money on an unreformed NHS and, as such, can't afford things like the Cancer Drugs Fund.

They've got a populist system of student support based on 'free' tuition fees which has resulted in less poorer students going to university. They've been criticised by the Auditor General for their failure to implement preventative spend measures to deal with our ageing population. They've failed to provide 2 hours of PE teaching a week to Scottish schoolchildren (a fairly ****ing modest target in a place with a great problem with childhood obesity), failed to reduce class sizes, cut the number of nursing staff far more than in England, failed to get major infrastructure projects off the ground, cut significant schemes like the Glasgow Airport Rail Link and lied about their powers in certain areas to absolve themselves of responsibility.

What exactly are they supposed to have succeeded in doing? Not blowing the place up?

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 4646

Left Hand Drive

Original post by Midlander

Ah, these old chestnuts. I made the assumption that an independent Scotland would get EU membership as, after all, the SNP have made it too. When I applied to St Andrews the fees were cheaper-so not a deterrent but equally considering the huge distance, not a massive incentive. Right now fees are the same so that situation hasn't changed much, but what about the Scots who are happy to pay for their education outside Scotland?

Find me any quotes from Salmond or Sturgeon where they make complaints about Wales or NI and not England. How many Yes campaigners have said 'What do I have in common with someone from Cardiff/Belfast?' instead of South East England?

Of course nobody talks about Bannockburn-you all sing about it though. Proud Edward's army and all that.

As for those clips, the comments get made in retaliation to all of the Anglophobic bile that makes its way down. The average Englishman lives too far away from Scotland to dislike it with any vigour-it is only when some arrogant, bigoted Scotsman starts complaining about how England is out to get Scotland that people get wound up and say silly things in response.

It doesn't excuse it, of course not, but if all you heard from the likes of him was how evil your country was, you'd get riled about it. I note you bypassed addressing any of the Anglophobic bigotry displayed here and elsewhere-do you think we're out to hold Scotland in chains, as one poster put it?

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What's you point? Should we not be able to sing about repulsing a foreign invader from our country?

Scotland left undefend again?! http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/dec/mod-exposed-russian-fleet-arrives-our-coast

Better together? Aye right...

Reply 4647

Aj12

Original post by Left Hand Drive

What's you point? Should we not be able to sing about repulsing a foreign invader from our country?

Scotland left undefend again?! http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/dec/mod-exposed-russian-fleet-arrives-our-coast

Better together? Aye right...

Are you.suggesting an independent Scotland would be able to.defend itself better than it currently can?

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Reply 4648

a729

16

Original post by CartoonHeart

Sorry for poor phrasing of the question, but I'm about to start an essay on Scottish Independence and I'm having the "blank paper" problem. I'm writing the essay in terms of fiscal policy but I am not sure what my opinion is. So that's why I want to know, what do the general public (or at least a load of intellectual, opinionated students) think about this? Even if anybody doesn't have anything to offer for my essay - in terms of fiscal policy - it may be quite an interesting debate. So all opinions regardless of the relevency to my work would be interesting. Thankyou :smile:

- (Nothing rude please, there's no need for it).

Over 4600 replies later, one hopes you have sufficient material to right to wrote a magnificent essay!

Reply 4649

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by JamesyC

Its something you tend to see from many separatist movements around the world. The future of the country is their vision, dictated by their policy (even in the world of western democracy). Why should you be surprised?

I'll admit, if I were Scottish I would vote Yes, the SNP are doing a better job of running Scotland than SF/DUP are in NI, and the Conservatives are in England/Wales. That would most likely change with independence, as is the case with all parties in Government for too long. Whats lacking is a Yes movement that isn't aligned to the SNP!

Are they doing a better job?

Or is it more to do with people hearing throughout the UK about how the sky is falling in and a realisation that things aren't as bad as the media makes out.

I want the SNP to stay in power to see if their 'great job' is sustainable.

Reply 4650

Original post by Left Hand Drive

What's you point? Should we not be able to sing about repulsing a foreign invader from our country?

Scotland left undefend again?! http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/dec/mod-exposed-russian-fleet-arrives-our-coast

Better together? Aye right...

So when you are proven to be contradicted that is the best you can do? All that song shows is that people still view England as the enemy or failing that, still have a chip on their shoulder about things which happened 700 years ago.

Nazi Germany bombed my city to smithereens just over 70 years ago but yet nobody here sings of 'proud Hitler's armies' or bears grudges despite the events being in living memory for some. Anglophobia and Scottish nationalism are intertwined, there is no two ways about it.

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Reply 4651

Boab

Original post by Midlander

So when you are proven to be contradicted that is the best you can do? All that song shows is that people still view England as the enemy or failing that, still have a chip on their shoulder about things which happened 700 years ago.

Nazi Germany bombed my city to smithereens just over 70 years ago but yet nobody here sings of 'proud Hitler's armies' or bears grudges despite the events being in living memory for some. Anglophobia and Scottish nationalism are intertwined, there is no two ways about it.

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Nope, you are just a narrow minded sod that thinks in generalities!

I will vote YES because I believe it is in Scotland's best interests, not because I am an anglophile. In fact many English support Scottish Independence, so how does that work? Do they hate themselves?!

The Flower of Scotland debate is boring, it's not anti-english (for evidence of this ask the guy who wrote the damn thing) but again, narrow vision. We could talk all day about songs people sing, and in reality most dont know what they sing.

"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'? The English rugby fans sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' which is just ****ed up! And, my favourite, 'Jerusalem' which is a great sounding anthem, but singing a song about the Crusades at a soldier's funeral who has died in the Middle East stretches irony a bit far!

Reply 4652

Original post by Left Hand Drive

Scotland left undefend again?! http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2013/dec/mod-exposed-russian-fleet-arrives-our-coast

Better together? Aye right...

Get out of it. I remember the 2011 'incident' that Angus Robertson created. There was a Russian presence sheltering. A Royal Navy destroyer was sent to escort them - for what purpose other than courtesy, I'm not particularly sure. They sailed south and a French vessel took over.

Then Angus Robertson had a go at the Russians for dumping waste off the side of the boat, using all sorts of overblown and offensive hyperbole. The UK Government, correctly, pointed out that the Russian navy were decent, reasonable sorts and were perfectly entitled to dump certain waste (including food etc) overboard if they wanted to.

In short, Angus Robertson should take his back-of-a-fag-packet defence plans and his two-bit provincial moaning and leave it to people who actually have a clue what they're doing.

Reply 4653

Original post by Boab

Nope, you are just a narrow minded sod that thinks in generalities!

I will vote YES because I believe it is in Scotland's best interests, not because I am an anglophile. In fact many English support Scottish Independence, so how does that work? Do they hate themselves?!

The Flower of Scotland debate is boring, it's not anti-english (for evidence of this ask the guy who wrote the damn thing) but again, narrow vision. We could talk all day about songs people sing, and in reality most dont know what they sing.

"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'? The English rugby fans sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' which is just ****ed up! And, my favourite, 'Jerusalem' which is a great sounding anthem, but singing a song about the Crusades at a soldier's funeral who has died in the Middle East stretches irony a bit far!

It isn't a broad sweeping generalisation when I have lived in Scotland for enough years to know how endemic this anti-English attitude is. Where are your statistics supporting your assertion on English people supporting Scottish independence? Those who do support it do so because they are tired of jumped up Scotsmen complaining about tyranny and a Westminster conspiracy-more a case of 'well bugger off and do it then' than 'good for Scotland'.

Flower of Scotland is the only national anthem which contains explicitly Anglophobic lyrics. Sorry, you can't duck out of that one. Jerusalem is in fact more about a supposed visit of Jesus to England. Nothing whatsoever to do with the crusades. I don't sing GSTQ as I vehemently oppose the monarchy-though interestingly enough Salmond still wants the Queen as head of state in his utopian society.

Note: watch the FMQs from Dec 19th. See how many times Salmond says 'south of the border' in place of 'England'. The bigot can't even bring himself to say the name of the country he despises. For what it's worth, Wales is also south of the border, but he can say that just fine.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 4654

Original post by Boab

I will vote YES because I believe it is in Scotland's best interests, not because I am an anglophile. In fact many English support Scottish Independence, so how does that work? Do they hate themselves?!

There is a difference between something being intertwined with something else, and it being universal across that. Take for example the English Defence League: they are anti-Asian and anti-Muslim - yet peculiarly enough have at least one member who is both.

I, for one, think there is a definite undercurrent of anti-English sentiment among Scottish nationalists. Hell, I know as much from grassroots SNP activists. But in reality, it's nowhere near the quite clear and overwhelming anti-British bigotry preached across the party. That's what's really unacceptable.

"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'?

Except that's just made up. Seriously, I'm amazed at how many Scottish nationalists on the internet present this utter fiction as fact.

It was, according to a third hand account in a magazine a century later, appended on to the end at a theatre in London in 1745. It is not a verse of the National Anthem, not has it ever been.

Reply 4655

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Boab

Nope, you are just a narrow minded sod that thinks in generalities!

I will vote YES because I believe it is in Scotland's best interests, not because I am an anglophile. In fact many English support Scottish Independence, so how does that work? Do they hate themselves?!

The Flower of Scotland debate is boring, it's not anti-english (for evidence of this ask the guy who wrote the damn thing) but again, narrow vision. We could talk all day about songs people sing, and in reality most dont know what they sing.

"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'? The English rugby fans sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' which is just ****ed up! And, my favourite, 'Jerusalem' which is a great sounding anthem, but singing a song about the Crusades at a soldier's funeral who has died in the Middle East stretches irony a bit far!

Flower of Scotland. That famous 1960s folk tune.

And the mythical anti Scottish verse to the national anthem that never existed other than in a music hall during the Jacobite uprising.

All in one posting.

Will you be watching brave heart this Christmas whilst believing all you read on newsnetscotland and wing over Scotland websites?

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 4656

Good bloke

Original post by Boab

"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'? The English rugby fans sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' which is just ****ed up! And, my favourite, 'Jerusalem' which is a great sounding anthem, but singing a song about the Crusades at a soldier's funeral who has died in the Middle East stretches irony a bit far!

You seem to like believing in myths. I know where you got the mythical anti-Scottish verse from, but I'd love to learn why you think Jerusalem is about the crusades.

You should know that SLSC was first sung at an England match by supporters specifically in honour of the debut of black player, Chris Oti, and it caught on from there.

Reply 4657

Left Hand Drive

Original post by Aj12

Are you.suggesting an independent Scotland would be able to.defend itself better than it currently can?

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don't we contribute 3.5 billion to defense and only have 2 billion spent in Scotland?

Reply 4658

Left Hand Drive

Original post by Midlander

So when you are proven to be contradicted that is the best you can do? All that song shows is that people still view England as the enemy or failing that, still have a chip on their shoulder about things which happened 700 years ago.

Nazi Germany bombed my city to smithereens just over 70 years ago but yet nobody here sings of 'proud Hitler's armies' or bears grudges despite the events being in living memory for some. Anglophobia and Scottish nationalism are intertwined, there is no two ways about it.

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It seems you are the one with a chip on your shoulder. Or a sore loser perhaps? Are we to forget our countries history? All the line is saying is we won against a foreign invader? Why does that upset you?

Reply 4659

Good bloke