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Lol. Scotland wants to be linked to our currency.
Original post by Good bloke
I bet Mark Carney isn't very popular Alex Salmond after today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25945688


Salmonds already trying to spin it into a victory, ignoring the fact that 60 million other people have to align with his dream.
Original post by 1tartanarmy
I have said on multiple occassions that the UK is a sovereign state. You have wasted your time.

What I was sayinh was that England and Scotland are countries.

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The Scottish independence movement has to be one of the most ludicrous, pathetic, embarrassing and least noble independence movements in human history. We're talking about a butthurt fat dude trying to win independence for a country that isn't oppressed, has huge control over its own laws and economy, has a culture that is incredibly similar to that of northern England, speaks the same language, has similar demographics to the rest of the Union and where so many of its inhabitants live in other parts of the Union.

Every passing day there's a new embarrassment- be it a consistently low approval rate, an authority in economics expressing doubt over an independent Scotland's viability, or a BoE governor casting doubt on one of the few policies the SNP has proposed for a future Scotland.

Add to that the simple fact that there would be virtually no change in Scotland's laws and legal system, its Head of State and currency will remain the same, and Scotland will become a relatively powerless subject of Brussels, it's clear that the word 'independence' has never meant so little.
Original post by navarre
The Scottish independence movement has to be one of the most ludicrous, pathetic, embarrassing and least noble independence movements in human history. We're talking about a butthurt fat dude trying to win independence for a country that isn't oppressed, has huge control over its own laws and economy, has a culture that is incredibly similar to that of northern England, speaks the same language, has similar demographics to the rest of the Union and where so many of its inhabitants live in other parts of the Union.

Every passing day there's a new embarrassment- be it a consistently low approval rate, an authority in economics expressing doubt over an independent Scotland's viability, or a BoE governor casting doubt on one of the few policies the SNP has proposed for a future Scotland.

Add to that the simple fact that there would be virtually no change in Scotland's laws and legal system, its Head of State and currency will remain the same, and Scotland will become a relatively powerless subject of Brussels, it's clear that the word 'independence' has never meant so little.


Which part of England are you from?


Posted from TSR Mobile
Mark Carney:

The Scottish government has stated that in the event of independence it would seek to retain sterling as part of a formal currency union.

"All aspects of any such arrangement would be a matter for the Scottish and UK parliaments.

"If such deliberations ever were to happen, they would need to consider carefully what the economics of currency unions suggest are the necessary foundations for a durable union, particularly given the clear risks if these foundations are not in place.


So basically

Real Headline: Bank of England governor sees currency union as sensible and negotiable. Yet, we've been told time and time again by Alistair Darling and BT it can't happen, no way you're using the pound, no guarantees, uncertainty, risks etc..

BBC Headline: Carney says Scots currency plan may lead to loss of power to vary economic policy (as if we have that much power right now)..
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 5665
Original post by cowsforsale
So basically

Real Headline: Bank of England governor sees currency union as sensible and negotiable.


He said nothing about it being sensible. He put forward reasons why it could be of use and reasons why it could create adverse risks. As for it being 'negotiable', of course it is.

Yet, we've been told time and time again by Alistair Darling and BT it can't happen


No, you've been told that it won't happen. A difference perhaps a tad subtle for you, but one which is significant nonetheless. No-one has ever said a currency union is impossible, simply that it would potentially be less advantageous to either Scotland (not a great argument) or the rest of the UK (a far better argument).

That is putting aside the whole debate over whether an independent Scotland would have to sign up to joining the Euro eventually in order to get into the EU.

Realistically, the UK has very little interest in being economically tied to another state. We never, for example, extended the offer of a currency union to the Republic of Ireland, even when it was clearly more than willing to change its currency and go into the Euro. The advantages are not considerable enough to the UK to warrant the effort.
10 reasons why the currency union is to Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s mutual economic benefit.

1) The rest of the UK relies on open trade with Scotland

Scotland is the rest of the UK’s most important and second largest trading market. Billions of pounds of goods arrive from England alone every month creating / safeguarding hundreds of thousands of jobs in the rest of the UK that rely upon having access to the Scottish market. For Westminster to enforce a currency barrier would go against rUK’s economic interests.

2) Scotland’s balance of payments ensures the stability of the pound sterling

Scotland is a key market for exports within the UK. The trading surplus of oil and gas, whisky and manufacturing provide stability for the UK balance of payments. This maintains the worth of the currency in international markets. rUK requires Scotland’s membership of sterling to protect the currency.

3) Economic experts support a currency union

The independent Fiscal Commission Working Group of globally renowned economists produced a considerable report into the macroeconomics of an independent Scotland conclusively supporting a currency union.

4) The financial markets and institutions support a currency union

Oliver Harvey, strategist for Deutsche Bank, described a Scotland-rUK Sterling arrangement as an “optimal currency area”

Valentin Marinov, the head of European Group-of-10 currency strategy at Citigroup added: “the potential introduction of a currency union need not affect significantly trade and other flows.”

5) The Treasury followed market pressure on debt and they will do the same on currency

The UK Treasury recently confirmed that they will secure the repayment of all the UK’s current debts. This was as a result of queries from the financial markets. Similarly, there will be calls for the UK Government to make quickly clarify the currency position if Scotland becomes independent. All the common sense economic evidence favours a currency union.

6) Mervyn King: UK Treasury approach would be “entirely different” following Yes vote.

Former Bank of England Governor Mervyn King has said that the UK Treasury approach to agreeing a currency union will be entirely different following independence. As it stands, Westminster politicians are engaging in political posturing during the referendum debate. After the referendum is finished economic common sense will prevail. The former Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is well placed to understand this.

7) Professor Hughes-Hallet dismissed Westminster politicians for “political posturing”

In a recent interview with BBC Scotland, Professor Andrew Hughes-Hallett, an expert in economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and a Professor at the University of St. Andrew’s, supported the currency union proposal.

He also said that: “The question is the running of it [the currency union], not the existence of it.” Westminster politicians, in his view, are engaging in “political posturing” while ignoring the economic evidence.

8) Westminster politicians will not rule out a currency union because it makes economic sense

Although Westminster politicians are negative and dismissive when it comes to cooperation after independence, all key representatives will not rule out a currency union. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls recently said he would hold discussions on the issue. Chancellor George Osborne knows that after a Yes vote the situation would change rapidly and he would have to act in the best interests of business and trade in the rest of the UK which means supporting a currency union. And now we know all the technical work will be complete.

9) The Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is already discussing the technicalities

Mark Carney’s presentation in Edinburgh was a key step towards a currency union after independence. It laid out the benefits of maintaining a currency union and opened up further dialogue between the Scottish Government, the Fiscal Commission Working Group and the Central Bank. The challenges that were set out by the Governor will be taken seriously and there is a substantial length of time until March 2016 (when Scotland would become independent) to establish working arrangements and institutions to address them.

10) Even Alistair Darling says that a currency union is “logical” & “desirable”

Alistair Darling, leading the No Campaign, understands that the politics before the referendum will be overtaken by the economic common sense that follows it.

On Newsnight Scotland he said “Of course it would be desirable to have a currency union…If you have independence or separation, of course the currency union is logical.”


[video="youtube;eKht7X6P0T4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKht7X6P0T4[/video]
Reply 5667
Original post by Psyk
I agree that Scotland is a country because Scottish people (as well as other British people) say it is one.


I say I'm a horse. Does that make me a horse?

If one were to consider extending to me the status of horsiness, would that not make the very nature of the label meaningless?

I'm just saying it's a fairly arbitrary label that is little more than an expression of how people feel. It doesn't have any bearing on whether Scotland should be independent, other than being a roundabout way of saying that some people in Scotland want it to be independent.


The assertion that an identity is somehow a national identity is expressly a political act. There's no cultural criteria for it, there's no reasonable degree of differentiation that it implies. It's just a way of someone saying that their identity is more important than yours, and that they deserve special political rights and treatment.
Reply 5668
Original post by cowsforsale
10 reasons why the currency union is to Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s mutual economic benefit.

1) The rest of the UK relies on open trade with Scotland

It doesn't ‘rely’ on anything of the sort. Nor indeed does not having the same currency prevent free or open trade. Notably we have that with the rest of the EU, none of whom use the pound sterling.

2) Scotland’s balance of payments ensures the stability of the pound sterling

Scotland is a key market for exports within the UK. The trading surplus of oil and gas, whisky and manufacturing provide stability for the UK balance of payments. This maintains the worth of the currency in international markets. rUK requires Scotland’s membership of sterling to protect the currency.


Scotland makes a contribution to the balance of payments. An argument in favour, certainly and I don’t think anyone has disputed that. Economists have, however, shown that the contribution is far, far lower than the SNP were suggesting.

What matters is that this is outweighed by other factors.

3) Economic experts support a currency union


Better Together today put forward a document with no less than 50 experts questioning the SNP’s monetary policy shenanigans.

4) The financial markets and institutions support a currency union

Oliver Harvey, strategist for Deutsche Bank, described a Scotland-rUK Sterling arrangement as an “optimal currency area”


It is. With political integration.

5) The Treasury followed market pressure on debt and they will do the same on currency

The UK Treasury recently confirmed that they will secure the repayment of all the UK’s current debts. This was as a result of queries from the financial markets. Similarly, there will be calls for the UK Government to make quickly clarify the currency position if Scotland becomes independent. All the common sense economic evidence favours a currency union.


No it doesn’t, and asserting that ‘all’ evidence supports your view is entirely foolish.

6) Mervyn King: UK Treasury approach would be “entirely different” following Yes vote.

Former Bank of England Governor Mervyn King has said that the UK Treasury approach to agreeing a currency union will be entirely different following independence. As it stands, Westminster politicians are engaging in political posturing during the referendum debate. After the referendum is finished economic common sense will prevail. The former Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is well placed to understand this.


All a bit poor really, no?

7) Professor Hughes-Hallet dismissed Westminster politicians for “political posturing”

In a recent interview with BBC Scotland, Professor Andrew Hughes-Hallett, an expert in economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and a Professor at the University of St. Andrew’s, supported the currency union proposal.

He also said that: “The question is the running of it [the currency union], not the existence of it.” Westminster politicians, in his view, are engaging in “political posturing” while ignoring the economic evidence.


He also said that “all new members of the EU are required to join the Euro eventually” and “it is not clear that there are grounds to argue that Scotland has the right to inherit the UK’s current Euro opt out.”

Hardly the expert the Nationalists really want to be citing at the moment.
8) Westminster politicians will not rule out a currency union because it makes economic sense

Westminster politicians do not have the power to do that. Moreover, what would they gain from doing so?
9) The Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is already discussing the technicalities

And explaining the risks…


10) Even Alistair Darling says that a currency union is “logical” & “desirable”

Alistair Darling, leading the No Campaign, understands that the politics before the referendum will be overtaken by the economic common sense that follows it.

On Newsnight Scotland he said “Of course it would be desirable to have a currency union…If you have independence or separation, of course the currency union is logical.”


Absolute, complete and utter misrepresentation. Really, your side has to stop this sort of thing. It’s dirty politics and it’s not on.

Here, for anyone who hasn’t seen it, is the complete quote. Judge from it what you believe Alistair Darling’s views to be:

Spoiler

For my entire life the SNP have been telling me that the UK is bad for Scotland and the British Government are either indifferent or actively hostile to Scotland.

Now the SNP are telling me that post-independence the future of Scotland rests on those same people agreeing to form a currency union with us and agreeing to give Scotland an even say over how that currency union is run.

Doesn't seem like the best idea....
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by navarre
The Scottish independence movement has to be one of the most ludicrous, pathetic, embarrassing and least noble independence movements in human history. We're talking about a butthurt fat dude trying to win independence for a country that isn't oppressed, has huge control over its own laws and economy, has a culture that is incredibly similar to that of northern England, speaks the same language, has similar demographics to the rest of the Union and where so many of its inhabitants live in other parts of the Union.

Every passing day there's a new embarrassment- be it a consistently low approval rate, an authority in economics expressing doubt over an independent Scotland's viability, or a BoE governor casting doubt on one of the few policies the SNP has proposed for a future Scotland.

Add to that the simple fact that there would be virtually no change in Scotland's laws and legal system, its Head of State and currency will remain the same, and Scotland will become a relatively powerless subject of Brussels, it's clear that the word 'independence' has never meant so little.


This is where I have huge problems with the campaign. I want an independent Scotland but have never understood why we would have the same monarch, and the same currency as a Foreign country. I would like an Independent Scotland which was a republic and either used their own new currency or joined the Euro. Sharing a currency with a foreign country which is not part of a wider union is really stupid.
Original post by King Kebab
This is where I have huge problems with the campaign. I want an independent Scotland but have never understood why we would have the same monarch, and the same currency as a Foreign country. I would like an Independent Scotland which was a republic and either used their own new currency or joined the Euro. Sharing a currency with a foreign country which is not part of a wider union is really stupid.


Indeed. Scotland has a rare opportunity to get rid of an archaic institution which epitomises societal inequality, but the SNP propose to keep it. A very odd way of making Scotland 'fairer' than those lunatics 'south of the border'.


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Original post by Midlander
Indeed. Scotland has a rare opportunity to get rid of an archaic institution which epitomises societal inequality, but the SNP propose to keep it. A very odd way of making Scotland 'fairer' than those lunatics 'south of the border'.


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Is this an attack on me or a general point?
What the Governor of the B o E was saying is that monetary union without political control - witness the EU fiasco - is a recipe for Greece type dissipation of the public finances leading to melt down. Scotland can not defy gravity and be "independent" on these terms.
If english people on this thread, generally speaking are against separation doesn't that mean , the average person (the average person is english) on this island, thinks making the island two nations, is a bad thing? If they think it is, isn't it quite likely that the average person will be negatively affected by this change?
Original post by FredOrJohn
If english people on this thread, generally speaking are against separation doesn't that mean , the average person (the average person is english) on this island, thinks making the island two nations, is a bad thing? If they think it is, isn't it quite likely that the average person will be negatively affected by this change?


Possibly.

Are you suggesting that that English people should also have a vote on the issue as it may affect them too?
Original post by King Kebab
Possibly.

Are you suggesting that that English people should also have a vote on the issue as it may affect them too?

No - not at all. Its just a point of interest that a Scottish voter should take into account. Will voting yes make my neighbours poorer (stuff like destabilizing pound)?
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by FredOrJohn
No - not at all. Its just a point of interest that a Scottish voter should take into account. Will voting yes make their neighbours poorer?


Kl, I thought that was the point you were making just making sure I didn't misinterpret you.

My answer is, I simply do not know whether England would be worse off because of separation from Scotland. I am not an economist. I try to focus on other aspects of the debate but I do think the economic side of things will be the main factor in how most people vote on the issue.

What I do think, and without trying to judge people who are English who oppose Scottish Independence is that some of them believe Scottish people believe English people are "idiots". While it is true you will get a few of the braveheart brigade, the vast majority of people who support Scottish independence support it for different reasons and challenge the braveheart brigade for spouting their "England are oppressing us" drivel.
Original post by King Kebab
Kl, I thought that was the point you were making just making sure I didn't misinterpret you.

My answer is, I simply do not know whether England would be worse off because of separation from Scotland. I am not an economist. I try to focus on other aspects of the debate but I do think the economic side of things will be the main factor in how most people vote on the issue.

What I do think, and without trying to judge people who are English who oppose Scottish Independence is that some of them believe Scottish people believe English people are "idiots". While it is true you will get a few of the braveheart brigade, the vast majority of people who support Scottish independence support it for different reasons and challenge the braveheart brigade for spouting their "England are oppressing us" drivel.


Well just make sure you take into account that taking the big foreign currency industries out of the pound area (oil, fish, whiskey) could easily cause a run on the pound... The whole thing sounds well dodgy to me. Way better to go for an even more federal uk by promoting how successful devolution has been to places like Manchester, Birmingham and Newcastle.
Thus creating a Federal UK on the lines of Germany or Australia
Original post by King Kebab
This is where I have huge problems with the campaign. I want an independent Scotland but have never understood why we would have the same monarch, and the same currency as a Foreign country. I would like an Independent Scotland which was a republic and either used their own new currency or joined the Euro. Sharing a currency with a foreign country which is not part of a wider union is really stupid.

How is joining the Euro any better than sharing the Pound?

In my view none of the options being presented - Pound, Euro or independent currency - would actually give Scotland independence.

As far as currency is concerned, by far the best option for Scotland is to remain within the UK and continue using the Pound.