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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Original post by 1tartanarmy
But most Scots voted SNP and so Alex Salmond is first minister. Most scots dod not vote tory yet David Scameron is prime minister.

Using the phrase "majority of scots" isn't smart or funny. Its immature. You know fine well the SNP got the most votes in the scottish elections.


Snp got less than 50% in the last Scottish election. Think they got about 45%
Original post by iJDB
I came to that conclusion through fact and evidence - http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

The person who wrote that article has made a fundamental mistake in that they don't seem to understand that MPs are elected on a constituency basis and not a national basis.

To say that, "Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government." is totally meaningless as Scottish MPs are not voted into the House of Commons as a single block. You might as well say, "Liverpudlian MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government."

The House of Commons is formed of individuals elected to a constituency seat. Imagine that you go to a ballot box to vote for a local representative in a small village of 4 streets. Each street elects one representative.

North Street votes for the candidate from the Orange Party, as does West Street. South Street then votes for the candidate from the Brown Party. East Street - where you live - is the final street to vote and they vote for the candidate from the Orange Party.

However, the Orange Party already has two elected representatives from North and West Street meaning that the Orange Party has a majority on the village council. Therefore does your vote, coming from East Street, not count?

Yes, of course your vote counts. The UK is a representative democracy and your representative from the Orange Party has been elected to serve on your behalf. In addition, the Orange Party have a clear majority allowing them to implement their policies. Your local representative is part of that majority that gives the local administration it's right to legislate.

Futhermore, I'd caution you against posting anything from 'Wings Over Scotland'. it's a pretty nasty website run by some very nasty people. The chap who wrote the article you've linked to there also wrote an article with the following message (http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-scotland-you-wish-to-see/),
Stuart Campbell
Scotland still has a chance to escape and set an example of a better way, and anyone threatening that must be regarded with merciless contempt, for the sake of everyone who lives on these islands.

I find that kind of lanugage in the context of an independence debate very disturbing. It is worth noting that the Yes Scotland campaign have officially distanced themselves from 'Wings Over Scotland' because of it's intolerant, discriminatory and bigoted material.
(http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/yes-campaign-distance-themselves-pro-independence-2266858)

Original post by iJDB
it quite blatantly did destroy our industry :smile:

The decline of heavy industry was apparent decades before Thatcher came to power.

Original post by iJDB
the union is outdated and no longer necessary.

How so?

Original post by iJDB
we can continue to trade with England after independence is achieved, like we trade other countries.

Will England necessarily want to trade with us to the same extent after we've just stuck two fingers up at them?

Original post by King Kebab
You know the vast majority of people in Scotland are not like this. I'm surprised you responded to his point tbh as most people would have paid no attention to it.

You're right, but all of us know at least one or two people who are fanatically anti-English. As Scots (whether in the UK or independent) it is our duty to stamp down on these people and stop their vile beliefs from spreading.
Original post by Midlander
If it is I would happily crack an egg over my face.


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Even if this were true, which I bet it isn't

Some (a small minority) English people will talk of a Jock stereotype

It isn't a one way process and it is a minority on both sides
Original post by King Kebab
Er no, the vast majority of Scottish people do not express "Anglophobia" stereotypes. I really want you to provide evidence for this assertion that we do though.

First I've ever heard the word "anglophobia" too


The evidence is anecdotal from living here and from those I know who live here as well. Scotland is the only nation on the planet with anti-English lyrics in its anthem for heaven's sake. Scots Wha Hae is sung at SNP party meetings and so on.

The best examples are of English people who have been born and raised in Scotland but aren't 'proper Scottish' because they don't have the accent or some other absurd reason. It is very rarely aggressive but stereotyping is very common and casually mentioned day to day.


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Original post by flugelr
You're right, but all of us know at least one or two people who are fanatically anti-English. As Scots (whether in the UK or independent) it is our duty to stamp down on these people and stop their vile beliefs from spreading.


Absolutely. The people who believe this bile are very much the victims of a very poor education system but that is still no excuse for some of their views. The way of getting beyond this is developing a culture where tolerant people challenge the views expressed by the fanatics rather than not let them have a voice at all.
Original post by King Kebab
Even if this were true, which I bet it isn't

Some (a small minority) English people will talk of a Jock stereotype

It isn't a one way process and it is a minority on both sides


It is very much a bigger thing in Scotland. The stereotype of Scotsmen back home is of people with chips on their shoulders about Longshanks who think we worship the 66 World Cup team-which isn't that inaccurate.


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Original post by Midlander
Disagree, I would say the majority of Scots have made equally stupid comments at one point or another. In fact, I got called an English **** for supporting my ice hockey team in Kirkcaldy a few months ago.


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What a stereotype you have just came out with! Why is it everyone I debate with does some obscure fringe hobby, whats the chances of ice hockey! nothing wrong with ice hockey...I just don't understand why the passionate no voters always have these unique hobbies.

I guess I'll never know!
Original post by Midlander
The evidence is anecdotal from living here and from those I know who live here as well. Scotland is the only nation on the planet with anti-English lyrics in its anthem for heaven's sake. Scots Wha Hae is sung at SNP party meetings and so on.

The best examples are of English people who have been born and raised in Scotland but aren't 'proper Scottish' because they don't have the accent or some other absurd reason. It is very rarely aggressive but stereotyping is very common and casually mentioned day to day.


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How long did you live here?

Where about in Scotland did you stay? (Think you said St Andrews, but I may be getting mixed up)

Where do you're friends stay?

I agrre with the National Anthem point. It is a childish national anthem which I hope will change in the near future

I really have never seen any of this accent stuff in all my life
Original post by King Kebab
That's quite a big accusation to make which i'm willing to wager has no credibility.


I agree with your statement to the full.
Original post by Midlander
Most Scots, ie over half, did not vote SNP. That is a fact.


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Most does not equal more than half. Most means that highest number of people voting a particular party. Since when does most mean it has to be over 50%? I'll tell you when...since never!
Original post by King Kebab
Absolutely. The people who believe this bile are very much the victims of a very poor education system but that is still no excuse for some of their views. The way of getting beyond this is developing a culture where tolerant people challenge the views expressed by the fanatics rather than not let them have a voice at all.


It is these people who make the Yes campaign something I just can't vote for. Granted they distance themselves from extreme groups but the Yes newsletter that comes through my door still exploits common misconceptions about England.


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Original post by Midlander
Look at the voting patterns in London itself and be prepared to look stupid.


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Your point is? Doesn't change the fact that a large portion of Northern England shares similar political beliefs to Scotland, so your point about it being a purely personal attack on Cameron is quite frankly, idiotic

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21576418-diverging-politics-labour-north-and-conservative-south-make-england-look-ever-more
Original post by 1tartanarmy
Most does not equal more than half. Most means that highest number of people voting a particular party. Since when does most mean it has to be over 50%? I'll tell you when...since never!


You are insane.


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Original post by Midlander
It is very much a bigger thing in Scotland. The stereotype of Scotsmen back home is of people with chips on their shoulders about Longshanks who think we worship the 66 World Cup team-which isn't that inaccurate.


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There is absolutely no evidence for this

Really, most Scottish people I know don't even no who Longshanks was
Original post by Jordooooom
Your point is? Doesn't change the fact that a large portion of Northern England shares similar political beliefs to Scotland, so your point about it being a purely personal attack on Cameron is quite frankly, stupid.


http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21576418-diverging-politics-labour-north-and-conservative-south-make-england-look-ever-more


Define Northern England for me. The North-South divide we so often hear about totally disregards the Midlands which is distinct from both and is also a Labour hotbed.


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Original post by Midlander
It is very much a bigger thing in Scotland. The stereotype of Scotsmen back home is of people with chips on their shoulders about Longshanks who think we worship the 66 World Cup team-which isn't that inaccurate.


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Your commentators and English football songs say otherwise about the world cup point. Which in my opinion is actually fair enough...I would be the same with Scotland if we only had a bit of luck when our team was top class.

I have never heard anyone bully someone because they were "english". Yours...if true is most certainly and isolated incident.
Original post by Midlander
It is these people who make the Yes campaign something I just can't vote for. Granted they distance themselves from extreme groups but the Yes newsletter that comes through my door still exploits common misconceptions about England.


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What does it say in the Yes campaign newsletter about England?
Original post by King Kebab
There is absolutely no evidence for this

Really, most Scottish people I know don't even no who Longshanks was


Crimes against members of one in the other country will help there.


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Original post by King Kebab
What does it say in the Yes campaign newsletter about England?


That we are friends of Scotland but we have a tendency to vote Tory. This was from a few weeks back.


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Original post by 1tartanarmy
Most does not equal more than half. Most means that highest number of people voting a particular party. Since when does most mean it has to be over 50%? I'll tell you when...since never!


You should look at a dictionary. A majority is more than 50% (or most), a plurality is a relative majority where the actual support is less that 50% (and, of course, not most).

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