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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Original post by CFL2013
If (IF) independence happened, it would be pretty much certain that you would use the GBP, but it would not be in a currency union for the reasons I'm trying to explain to that tartanarmy fella. It would then be possible to introduce a Scottish currency and have it follow the GBP for a while to stabilise, and then leave sterling in the future. That is the only way I can see it happening, it is similar to what happend with the Euro.
The Yes Campaign are basically flat out lying. However, Salmond is usually a canny politician (much more so than most in Westminster) so I can't see why he's painting himself into this corner. I think he's got something up his sleeve. Be interesting to see what.
The Yes Campaign are basically flat out lying. However, Salmond is usually a canny politician (much more so than most in Westminster) so I can't see why he's painting himself into this corner. I think he's got something up his sleeve. Be interesting to see what.
Some believe that's actually a better option, think an article about it was written on the adam smith institute.
Someone claimed that he's doing this to make the UK government out as the bad guys again by not allowing a currency union and to be fair I have seen some people deciding to vote yes after Osbourne's speech. Seems a bit far fetched though.
Original post by Jordooooom
Some believe that's actually a better option, think an article about it was written on the adam smith institute.
Someone claimed that he's doing this to make the UK government out as the bad guys again by not allowing a currency union and to be fair I have seen some people deciding to vote yes after Osbourne's speech. Seems a bit far fetched though.
Someone claimed that he's doing this to make the UK government out as the bad guys again by not allowing a currency union and to be fair I have seen some people deciding to vote yes after Osbourne's speech. Seems a bit far fetched though.
It's the only realistic option and I don't know why they don't just come out and admit it.
I think most reasonable Scottish people would understand that taxpayers in the rUK would not want to cover them via the BoE in the event of independence. Any extra votes he gets on the back of this are hardly well informed.
I've occasionally wondered if he's purposely trying to poison the subject so much that there is a serious movement towards an English referendum (now THAT would be interesting
) and England walks away from Scotland, Wales and NI........Original post by 1tartanarmy
Daily record poll that was released today. No methodology was released but the daily record is a unionist paper so I can see why they wouldn't release if 40% were yes.
How can you say that the daily record is a unionist paper. Show me one article where it has come out and actively supported the no campaign. It even has Joan MacAlpine writing for it.
You'll have to show me the link to the daily record article as surprisingly it doesn't seem to be there.
There was an editorial by SNP MSP Joan MacAlpine a few weeks ago claiming 40%, but alas she's cherry picked her data.
By the way has anyone here been polled?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by 1tartanarmy
Daily record poll that was released today. No methodology was released but the daily record is a unionist paper so I can see why they wouldn't release if 40% were yes.
Can you post a link? I can't find anything on their website.
Original post by flugelr
Can you post a link? I can't find anything on their website.
I think he's talking about this. ( please note its an editorial from an SNP MSP)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/joan-mcalpine-turning-tide-war-3067818
Alas her claims weren't that accurate.
She's also claimed that London is stealing money from Scotland to pay for its sewer upgrade. That was made up as well. She also claims anybody who doesn't support the SNP is anti scottish.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I think he's talking about this. ( please note its an editorial from an SNP MSP)
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/joan-mcalpine-turning-tide-war-3067818
Alas her claims weren't that accurate.
She's also claimed that London is stealing money from Scotland to pay for its sewer upgrade. That was made up as well. She also claims anybody who doesn't support the SNP is anti scottish.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/joan-mcalpine-turning-tide-war-3067818
Alas her claims weren't that accurate.
She's also claimed that London is stealing money from Scotland to pay for its sewer upgrade. That was made up as well. She also claims anybody who doesn't support the SNP is anti scottish.
Ah right.
And don't worry, for some time I've held the view that McAlpine is a vile woman.
Original post by 1tartanarmy
Very constructive post. Ya eejit.
Better than anything the SNP has ever spouted.
The biggest problem surrounding union is FINANCE .
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland. A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket without any tax being paid towards the Scottish people so in reality the Scottish people would benefit more outwith union as the money they would gain back would outweigh the money lost. Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland. A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket without any tax being paid towards the Scottish people so in reality the Scottish people would benefit more outwith union as the money they would gain back would outweigh the money lost. Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
Original post by campbellh05
Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland.
Westminster couldn't "take away" the pound, but in the (unlikely) event of independence, there almost certainly would not be a currency union.
A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket without any tax being paid towards the Scottish people so in reality the Scottish people would benefit more outwith union as the money they would gain back would outweigh the money lost.
This is utter nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about how taxes are collected and distributed in the UK.
Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
In the early 18th century, Scotland needed the Union a lot more than England did...
Original post by campbellh05
Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
You really should study a bit more history, If you did you would find that (a) Scotland hadn't invaded England for a century and a half and already shared a monarch who lived mainly in England, (b) Scotland wasn't allied with France during that war, and Scottish units (like the Cameronians at Blenheim) were in the British armies fighting against France. I'll leave you to find out the real reasons for the union.
Original post by Good bloke
You really should study a bit more history, If you did you would find that (a) Scotland hadn't invaded England for a century and a half and already shared a monarch who lived mainly in England, (b) Scotland wasn't allied with France during that war, and Scottish units (like the Cameronians at Blenheim) were in the British armies fighting against France. I'll leave you to find out the real reasons for the union.
Not that this tells us anything about the debate today - much of it's not really relevant any more.
Original post by Blue Meltwater
after 1689 many Scots rejected King William II/III, seeing James II/VII as the true king.
Well, yes, but more accepted the Hanoverians, and the 1708 and 1719 attempted invasions and the '15 rising were doomed to failure. The RN and weather saw to the former and the latter didn't even have the loyalty of all highlanders and the Jacobites were never going to win while being led by Mar who was incompetent.
Dear England
Do you remember 1997?
You finally figured out what we had known for years. You figured out that the vast majority of us would be much better off with any government other than the Tories. You voted in droves to get rid of them and we celebrated together. We were filled with optimism and rightly so. The quality of life for most people in the UK improved greatly over the next decade. A list of 50 our gains can be found below, in case you've forgotten.
Labour won that election by a huge majority but they were far from the only political party who did well. Just about every party other than the Tories made huge gains and it seemed like people were realising that there are more than 2 options on the ballot.
Then came the recession. The legacy of Thatcher's yuppification of the City of London in the 80s. The actions of super-rich Tory voters, Tory donors, Tory lobbyists and Tory policy beneficiaries contributed to a massive international crisis. We wanted Gordon Brown to fix it for us but it was too big a job.
Times got bad and you got weak-willed and forgetful. David Cameron capitalised. The Conservatives could "make things better without spending more money", he said, and had radical plans to "help the poorest, protect the NHS, help people find work and support families".
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland knew it was a pack of lies and collectively gave him only 3 seats. England fell for it hook, line and sinker. You actually let him have enough seats to become Prime Minister. How daft do you feel now?
We are all suffering so much now thanks to your abject gullibility. It's always the kids who suffer the most. The thing is, we're now big enough to move out. If you hadn't let the abusive father figure that is the Tory party move back in we'd probably want to stay. You keep forgiving and forgetting. You keep electing Tories.
Enough is enough. It's time for us to have a new home that we know will never be painted blue. We need to be free of the Tories. We will no longer put up with austerity from the bottom up. We will no longer put up with our Grannies freezing and starving to death. We will no longer put up with parents going hungry so they can afford to feed and clothe their kids. We will no longer put up with a ruling class of leeches draining our resources from where they are needed in order to make themselves and their old boarding school classmates even more disgustingly rich.
We want to be prosperous and the only way we can be is if we aren't ever ruled by Tories. We can only achieve that by having our own government.
Of course we will still think of you as family. We can still visit each other for holidays. We'll still buy your fantastic pork pies, hams, sauces, clotted cream and telly programs. We'll still sell you salmon, whiskey and raspberries. You're welcome to come round for a kickabout anytime and we hope to keep enjoying Jools' Hootenanny together.
We hope you can follow our example and get yourselves a parliament essentially contested by 3 different liberal parties who all seem to have genuine intent to improve everyone's standard of living. Otherwise you'll probably end up losing Wales and Northern Ireland too.
Best wishes and best of luck
Scotland
P.S. Since we have next to no Tory, BNP or UKIP representation, there probably won't be much opposition to half of you coming to stay as economic migrants.
What we gained between 1997 and 2010 and are now rapidly losing:
1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.
Do you remember 1997?
You finally figured out what we had known for years. You figured out that the vast majority of us would be much better off with any government other than the Tories. You voted in droves to get rid of them and we celebrated together. We were filled with optimism and rightly so. The quality of life for most people in the UK improved greatly over the next decade. A list of 50 our gains can be found below, in case you've forgotten.
Labour won that election by a huge majority but they were far from the only political party who did well. Just about every party other than the Tories made huge gains and it seemed like people were realising that there are more than 2 options on the ballot.
Then came the recession. The legacy of Thatcher's yuppification of the City of London in the 80s. The actions of super-rich Tory voters, Tory donors, Tory lobbyists and Tory policy beneficiaries contributed to a massive international crisis. We wanted Gordon Brown to fix it for us but it was too big a job.
Times got bad and you got weak-willed and forgetful. David Cameron capitalised. The Conservatives could "make things better without spending more money", he said, and had radical plans to "help the poorest, protect the NHS, help people find work and support families".
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland knew it was a pack of lies and collectively gave him only 3 seats. England fell for it hook, line and sinker. You actually let him have enough seats to become Prime Minister. How daft do you feel now?
We are all suffering so much now thanks to your abject gullibility. It's always the kids who suffer the most. The thing is, we're now big enough to move out. If you hadn't let the abusive father figure that is the Tory party move back in we'd probably want to stay. You keep forgiving and forgetting. You keep electing Tories.
Enough is enough. It's time for us to have a new home that we know will never be painted blue. We need to be free of the Tories. We will no longer put up with austerity from the bottom up. We will no longer put up with our Grannies freezing and starving to death. We will no longer put up with parents going hungry so they can afford to feed and clothe their kids. We will no longer put up with a ruling class of leeches draining our resources from where they are needed in order to make themselves and their old boarding school classmates even more disgustingly rich.
We want to be prosperous and the only way we can be is if we aren't ever ruled by Tories. We can only achieve that by having our own government.
Of course we will still think of you as family. We can still visit each other for holidays. We'll still buy your fantastic pork pies, hams, sauces, clotted cream and telly programs. We'll still sell you salmon, whiskey and raspberries. You're welcome to come round for a kickabout anytime and we hope to keep enjoying Jools' Hootenanny together.
We hope you can follow our example and get yourselves a parliament essentially contested by 3 different liberal parties who all seem to have genuine intent to improve everyone's standard of living. Otherwise you'll probably end up losing Wales and Northern Ireland too.
Best wishes and best of luck
Scotland
P.S. Since we have next to no Tory, BNP or UKIP representation, there probably won't be much opposition to half of you coming to stay as economic migrants.
What we gained between 1997 and 2010 and are now rapidly losing:
1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.
Original post by Liam Gotch
What we gained between 1997 and 2010 and are now rapidly losing:
What we gained between 1997 and 2010 and are now rapidly losing:
The thing is, a hell of a lot of stuff on that list was funded by totally unsustainable levels of borrowing. Surely you should be critical of that?
I've never understood the atitude of many other Scots when it comes to Labour. Look at places like Glasgow North East. The area has voted Labour at every election since 1935, yet the people who live there are among the most deprived in the UK. Even during the "good years" of the early 2000s the area remained at the bottom.
Why would you continue to vote for a party that after more than 75 years has clearly failed to turn the area around?
Original post by flugelr
The thing is, a hell of a lot of stuff on that list was funded by totally unsustainable levels of borrowing. Surely you should be critical of that?
no it wasn't, borrowing has gone up since 2008 because of the economic crash, the borrowing levels in the UK before that were very much sustainable as they were, well being sustained...pretty sure that other nations had much higher borrowing yet were also doing find before the crash as well, borrowing is sustainable to probably much higher levels than it is even now tbh, as long as people are accepting your payments on that borrowing in fact it's sustainable.
Original post by SciFiRory
no it wasn't, borrowing has gone up since 2008 because of the economic crash, the borrowing levels in the UK before that were very much sustainable as they were, well being sustained...pretty sure that other nations had much higher borrowing yet were also doing find before the crash as well, borrowing is sustainable to probably much higher levels than it is even now tbh, as long as people are accepting your payments on that borrowing in fact it's sustainable.
As you can tell, I'm not an economist, but wasn't the financial crash partly because we have such a high level of government debt? The debt comes from money we borrowed to spend on these big projects.
Original post by campbellh05
The biggest problem surrounding union is FINANCE .
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland. A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket without any tax being paid towards the Scottish people so in reality the Scottish people would benefit more outwith union as the money they would gain back would outweigh the money lost. Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland. A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket without any tax being paid towards the Scottish people so in reality the Scottish people would benefit more outwith union as the money they would gain back would outweigh the money lost. Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
Probably more to do with the fall out of the euro crisis ala Greece. Its been a huge assumption of the SNP that in the event of a yes vote a foreign county of 60 million bank rolls and acts as lender of last resort to another foreign country.
I wouldn't want to guarantee anybody else's reckless spending, especially when the SNPs numbers don't add up.
Original post by flugelr
As you can tell, I'm not an economist, but wasn't the financial crash partly because we have such a high level of government debt? The debt comes from money we borrowed to spend on these big projects.
well, neither am I, but it's common sense surely, borrowing is only sustainable as long as people accept your payments on it...well yes but again most if not all nations have debt, heck most western economies as I understand it have huge levels of debt, which have generally gone UP not down since the crash, government debt also as I understand it works very differently to household debt as it is infinitely more complex.
like I said I am by no means an expert, but from my understanding of these things it is by no means as simple as "Labour borrowed too much" or "had too much debt"
the debate atm is generally about the deficit which is how much less the government brings in than goes out in an individual year, which to me seems rather ignorant of the wider issues that surely effect the economy as well.
Original post by campbellh05
The biggest problem surrounding union is FINANCE .
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland.
it's the one thing everyone is questioning. Will Scotland have to change to the Euro? But one question nobody is asking is WHY! Westminster wouldn't be threatening to take the pound away from Scotland unless they were trying to find yet another excuse to remain in union with Scotland.
Yes they would. For precisely the same reason we're opposed to entering the Euro. It's quite clear that there is no political will to be in a currency union - Scottish independence is the sideshow to that.
A I guess you have to question whether its actually a case of England needing Scotland more than Scotland needs England. All of Scottish wealth from the oil companies goes straight into England's back pocket
England doesn't have any pocket, back or otherwise. In fact, it goes to the UK Treasury, and is then all spent in Scotland - plus billions more.
Besides if you investigate the original reason's behind union the only reason England wanted union was to basically get rid of any possible threats of invasion from the North by France due to the Spanish war of succession at that time and also to remove the threat of the Jacobite rebellion and the possibility of the return of a Stuart King.
I'll not go into the historical facts here as I see others have covered that, but so what? Do you know, or even care, why Scotland was unified originally? Or why it then invaded the Lothians and Strathclyde to expand its territory? I doubt it, and I certainly know how little it matters at all to modern politics.
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