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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Original post by MostUncivilised
One poll, that indicates that if the referendum were held tomorrow, the no camp would romp home.
Original post by Blue Meltwater
George Osborne's speech certainly doesn't seem to have had the desire effect.
It's worthwhile not jumping the gun. One swallow does not a summer make. One poll means nothing, it could be an aberration. The SNP jumping on it stinks of desperation
So thus far they have no currency, no membership to the EU and no respectable leadership... I would say it's great for us and terrible for them.
Original post by Blue Meltwater
It predicts a 45-55% split once the Don't Knows are taken out, which is remarkably close. The No Camp is still safely ahead, I agree, but George Osborne's speech certainly doesn't seem to have had the desire effect.
I don't think it was ever going to result in a significant swing, and I don't think that was the intent. For the undecideds, I think it will firm up views on both sides somewhat - those who buy one side's narrative more than the other will accept their version of it.
The actual argument isn't going to win people over - but it plants seeds of doubt in the minds of the public about the SNP's competence and trustworthiness. It's part of a broader scheme that is designed to show Alex Salmond standing alone, head above the parapet and - regardless of his comebacks - looking isolated and increasingly desperate.
It's a longer play - and obviously that makes it harder to judge if it's working - but I can't think of a single short-term thing that has made the slightest real difference to the polls. Trust will probably be what wins the day.
Original post by VladThe1mpaler
Both of their opinions are irrelevant as neither of them live in the UK, let alone Scotland!
I don't think anyone's opinion is irrelevant. It can be stupid, or boring, or any combination of things, but I don't think it's irrelevant.
Quite interesting how Bowie did that last night though. It couldn't have been done better if he had a team of political strategists behind him.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I've thought of that with the high end formula 1 manufacturing based just outside London.
Or George Osborne himself describing Coventry as a manufacturing centre. London has several fortes but manufacturing isn't one of them.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Midlander
Exactly, just how many more English expats moving to the glens and islands can Scotland absorb?
(I'm being cheeky lol.)
Edit: One poll aside, the SNP's Yes campaign has consistently failed to make a valid case on any point in the debate. Polls are just snapshots of errant thoughts wafting in the wind on any particular day.
With the Yes campaigns failure to make a real case, and the fact that taking full stock of all other streams of media and opinion show little strong support for an independent Scotland, it's safe to assume that No is the answer Salmond will get.
And the thing is I think he knows it. Whether he is consciously admitting it to himself or he is using the referendum to get some other sub-independence concessions is anyones guess.
If he is he's gambling though and he is risking going all in and getting nothing from Westminster but the death of the SNP as a viable party.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
Exactly, just how many more English expats moving to the glens and islands can Scotland absorb?
(I'm being cheeky lol.)
Edit: One poll aside, the SNP's Yes campaign has consistently failed to make a valid case on any point in the debate. Polls are just snapshots of errant thoughts wafting in the wind on any particular day.
With the Yes campaigns failure to make a real case, and the fact that taking full stock of all other streams of media and opinion show little strong support for an independent Scotland, it's safe to assume that No is the answer Salmond will get.
And the thing is I think he knows it. Whether he is consciously admitting it to himself or he is using the referendum to get some other sub-independence concessions is anyones guess.
If he is he's gambling though and he is risking going all in and getting nothing from Westminster but the death of the SNP as a viable party.
(I'm being cheeky lol.)
Edit: One poll aside, the SNP's Yes campaign has consistently failed to make a valid case on any point in the debate. Polls are just snapshots of errant thoughts wafting in the wind on any particular day.
With the Yes campaigns failure to make a real case, and the fact that taking full stock of all other streams of media and opinion show little strong support for an independent Scotland, it's safe to assume that No is the answer Salmond will get.
And the thing is I think he knows it. Whether he is consciously admitting it to himself or he is using the referendum to get some other sub-independence concessions is anyones guess.
If he is he's gambling though and he is risking going all in and getting nothing from Westminster but the death of the SNP as a viable party.
People are firmly entrenched in their views.
My concern is the damage that this bile will create.
Original post by MatureStudent36
People are firmly entrenched in their views.
My concern is the damage that this bile will create.
My concern is the damage that this bile will create.
I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Yeah there's a hardcore fringe on the Yes side against independence, but the fact that the debate is firmly about the practical concerns and the SNP are having (and have had no) no tangible gains via emotional appeals about romantic nationalism outside of the few who buy into that stuff anyway shows how truly fragile and dire their position genuinely is.
The SNP have done well so far because surprisingly enough they played down the pro-independence dogma on which the party was founded, and were seen in the new Scottish parliamentary environment by the public as a party more concerned with local Scottish political affairs. This however was never a rousing endorsement of the concept of independence and breaking from union.
The SNP have consistently struggled to square away their minority attitude with that of Scotland as a whole: A nation proud of itself yet also comfortable and proud of it's more than substantial role in the UK.
But then, we'll all have to wait and see for what the referendum brings in hindsight.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by MatureStudent36
My concern is the damage that this bile will create.
My concern is the damage that this bile will create.
I've started to wonder that too, Salmond is usually such an effective politician but he's making an absolute mess out of this. Marginals won't vote for him because he is giving the impression that he is completely out of his depth. He is being made to look ridiculous every time he opens his mouth.
But perhaps he's playing a longer game than we realise and he's trying to open a box that cannot be shut again by damaging relations between Scotland and rUK permenantly?
Or is it even more basic (and despiciable) than that and he has realised that, with an independent Scotland, there isn't much need for a Scottish nationalist party? :-)
Don't know if this has been posted on here before but it's a very well argued demolition on the Yes Campaigns position at the moment:
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/the-snps-currency-nightmare/
The guy's a Unionist, but also Prof of Law at Glasgow University
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by CFL2013
I've started to wonder that too, Salmond is usually such an effective politician but he's making an absolute mess out of this. Marginals won't vote for him because he is giving the impression that he is completely out of his depth. He is being made to look ridiculous every time he opens his mouth.
But perhaps he's playing a longer game than we realise and he's trying to open a box that cannot be shut again by damaging relations between Scotland and rUK permenantly?
Or is it even more basic (and despiciable) than that and he has realised that, with an independent Scotland, there isn't much need for a Scottish nationalist party? :-)
Don't know if this has been posted on here before but it's a very well argued demolition on the Yes Campaigns position at the moment:
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/the-snps-currency-nightmare/
The guy's a Unionist, but also Prof of Law at Glasgow University
But perhaps he's playing a longer game than we realise and he's trying to open a box that cannot be shut again by damaging relations between Scotland and rUK permenantly?
Or is it even more basic (and despiciable) than that and he has realised that, with an independent Scotland, there isn't much need for a Scottish nationalist party? :-)
Don't know if this has been posted on here before but it's a very well argued demolition on the Yes Campaigns position at the moment:
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/the-snps-currency-nightmare/
The guy's a Unionist, but also Prof of Law at Glasgow University
He's not that effective. He's just surrounded by dross. You're average MSP is on the same level as a councillor.
David Bowie trying to lecture Scots whilst not even bothering to show up in the UK to lecture us in person is laughable. What a ****ing bellend he is.
"Oh look, an irrelevant Englishman who hasn't lived in the UK for 14 years told us to vote no, we MUST do it now!!!"
**** off.
"Oh look, an irrelevant Englishman who hasn't lived in the UK for 14 years told us to vote no, we MUST do it now!!!"
**** off.
Original post by MatureStudent36
He's not that effective. He's just surrounded by dross. You're average MSP is on the same level as a councillor.
He got the referendum called tbf ;-)
Original post by CFL2013
He got the referendum called tbf ;-)
He got a referendum in an issue that he knows he can't win and having to ask a question that he doesn't want to ask.
It was in the SNPs manifesto to have a referendum. Westminster was never going to stop that.
Watch the Scottish Parliament channel and stand by to be amazed at the level of mediocrity and dullness.
Original post by MatureStudent36
He got a referendum in an issue that he knows he can't win and having to ask a question that he doesn't want to ask.
It was in the SNPs manifesto to have a referendum. Westminster was never going to stop that.
Watch the Scottish Parliament channel and stand by to be amazed at the level of mediocrity and dullness.
It was in the SNPs manifesto to have a referendum. Westminster was never going to stop that.
Watch the Scottish Parliament channel and stand by to be amazed at the level of mediocrity and dullness.
Where do you live?
Original post by Libertatem
Where do you live?
Edinburgh
Original post by MatureStudent36
Edinburgh
For one so dead against Scotland governing itself, you're truly making a good case for us having enough control as it is.
(mediocre and dull, was it?)
Original post by Libertatem
Please alert me to wherever I said that "new" answers had been included.
Alright then, let's go for the first five questions in the book!
What is the benefit of independence?
Why is becoming independent important?
What will independence deliver for me?
How will we become independent?
Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Do you need any more? There's a lot of answers here...
Alright then, let's go for the first five questions in the book!
What is the benefit of independence?
Why is becoming independent important?
What will independence deliver for me?
How will we become independent?
Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Do you need any more? There's a lot of answers here...
Can you help direct me to the page where it says how much it will cost create the new functions which will enable Scotland to be independent? Its a long comprehensive document and I can't actually find it...
Original post by Quady
Can you help direct me to the page where it says how much it will cost create the new functions which will enable Scotland to be independent? Its a long comprehensive document and I can't actually find it...
Page 377 and a variety of pages in chapter 2.
I don't believe they list a cost for every single new function though, that would be ludicrously tedious and I don't think anyone has the time or patience to actually read and analyse every new function.
Regardless, even if it was there, unionists would just call it more to add to the, unionist termed, "wish list".
Original post by Libertatem
Page 377 and a variety of pages in chapter 2.
I don't believe they list a cost for every single new function though, that would be ludicrously tedious and I don't think anyone has the time or patience to actually read and analyse every new function.
Regardless, even if it was there, unionists would just call it more to add to the, unionist termed, "wish list".
I don't believe they list a cost for every single new function though, that would be ludicrously tedious and I don't think anyone has the time or patience to actually read and analyse every new function.
Regardless, even if it was there, unionists would just call it more to add to the, unionist termed, "wish list".
The contents of p377 below. It has no costs identified. It wouldn't be too tedious in a 600 page document to mention how much it would cost to setup an independent Revenue Scotland and independent welfare system.
'The Economy
5. Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Yes. Scotland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. In
terms of our total economic output per head we ranked eighth
out of the 34 developed countries in the OECD in 2011. We
raise more tax and our public finances have been stronger than
the UK as a whole over the past 30 years.
Despite all these strengths, many families in Scotland are
struggling to make ends meet. We are a wealthy country and
yet the full benefit of our vast wealth is not felt by the people
who live and work here. With independence, we can make sure
Scotland’s wealth and resources work better for the people of
Scotland. To find out more about Scotland’s public finances see
Chapter 2.
6. How would being independent benefit Scotland’s
economy?
The Scottish Government believes that independence is the key
to economic success. Scotland needs control over economic
and fiscal powers to unlock our potential, boost growth and
create sustainable, fairly-rewarded jobs.
Full control of the most effective levers of growth – such as tax,
welfare and regulation – will allow Scotland to develop policies
designed to deliver sustainable economic growth.
Scotland is already a wealthy nation, but the full benefit of that
wealth is not felt by people across the country. With
independence, we can turn our rich country into a prosperous
society, with the many strengths of our economy delivering
more for the people who live and work here.
7. Will an independent Scotland continue to use the Bank of
England?
Yes. The Bank of England is the central bank for Scotland, as well
as for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It was formally
nationalised in 1946 and is therefore an institution and asset
owned both by Scotland and the rest of the UK. '
Original post by Quady
The contents of p377 below. It has no costs identified. It wouldn't be too tedious in a 600 page document to mention how much it would cost to setup an independent Revenue Scotland and independent welfare system.
'The Economy
5. Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Yes. Scotland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. In
terms of our total economic output per head we ranked eighth
out of the 34 developed countries in the OECD in 2011. We
raise more tax and our public finances have been stronger than
the UK as a whole over the past 30 years.
Despite all these strengths, many families in Scotland are
struggling to make ends meet. We are a wealthy country and
yet the full benefit of our vast wealth is not felt by the people
who live and work here. With independence, we can make sure
Scotland’s wealth and resources work better for the people of
Scotland. To find out more about Scotland’s public finances see
Chapter 2.
6. How would being independent benefit Scotland’s
economy?
The Scottish Government believes that independence is the key
to economic success. Scotland needs control over economic
and fiscal powers to unlock our potential, boost growth and
create sustainable, fairly-rewarded jobs.
Full control of the most effective levers of growth – such as tax,
welfare and regulation – will allow Scotland to develop policies
designed to deliver sustainable economic growth.
Scotland is already a wealthy nation, but the full benefit of that
wealth is not felt by people across the country. With
independence, we can turn our rich country into a prosperous
society, with the many strengths of our economy delivering
more for the people who live and work here.
7. Will an independent Scotland continue to use the Bank of
England?
Yes. The Bank of England is the central bank for Scotland, as well
as for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It was formally
nationalised in 1946 and is therefore an institution and asset
owned both by Scotland and the rest of the UK. '
'The Economy
5. Can Scotland afford to be independent?
Yes. Scotland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. In
terms of our total economic output per head we ranked eighth
out of the 34 developed countries in the OECD in 2011. We
raise more tax and our public finances have been stronger than
the UK as a whole over the past 30 years.
Despite all these strengths, many families in Scotland are
struggling to make ends meet. We are a wealthy country and
yet the full benefit of our vast wealth is not felt by the people
who live and work here. With independence, we can make sure
Scotland’s wealth and resources work better for the people of
Scotland. To find out more about Scotland’s public finances see
Chapter 2.
6. How would being independent benefit Scotland’s
economy?
The Scottish Government believes that independence is the key
to economic success. Scotland needs control over economic
and fiscal powers to unlock our potential, boost growth and
create sustainable, fairly-rewarded jobs.
Full control of the most effective levers of growth – such as tax,
welfare and regulation – will allow Scotland to develop policies
designed to deliver sustainable economic growth.
Scotland is already a wealthy nation, but the full benefit of that
wealth is not felt by people across the country. With
independence, we can turn our rich country into a prosperous
society, with the many strengths of our economy delivering
more for the people who live and work here.
7. Will an independent Scotland continue to use the Bank of
England?
Yes. The Bank of England is the central bank for Scotland, as well
as for England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It was formally
nationalised in 1946 and is therefore an institution and asset
owned both by Scotland and the rest of the UK. '
Your smart arse reply would be slightly funny if it wasn't nullified by the fact that I had already said it doesn't list costs. Nice try though.
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