This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- MA English Literature at St Andrews
- Introducing an Eelam flag emoticon on TSR
- Cambridge CS chances
- Modern Studies Higher
- Edinburgh vs Durham
- St Andrews 5 year VS England 4 year degrees
- Calling All Scottish Students!!
- how to study for national 5 English
- Realistically, do I have a shot of getting into vet med?
- Dentistry Backups?
- I've found St Andrews to be a racist university
- Should I do a nursing college course in S5?
- dentistry
- missing school
- PhD Funding Scottish History/Museums
- I feel like dropping out sometimes
- University Admissions Advice
- Is it bad that I DON'T want to be an 'independent woman'?
- Official University of Glasgow Offer Holders Thread for 2024 entry
- is common law at Glasgow competitive?
Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
Scroll to see replies
Original post by L i b
But thanks for popping in and sharing your religious bigotry. There's not much I really hope for in this ridiculous debate on "Scotland's future", but if we could just manage the basics like keeping ****ing West of Scotland sectarian rubbish from seeping into it, we might at least be able to have something decent to say about the whole episode once it's out of the way.
But thanks for popping in and sharing your religious bigotry. There's not much I really hope for in this ridiculous debate on "Scotland's future", but if we could just manage the basics like keeping ****ing West of Scotland sectarian rubbish from seeping into it, we might at least be able to have something decent to say about the whole episode once it's out of the way.
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
It's funny how Ireland used to be the SNP's wet dream idol, alongside the whole 'Celtic nation brotherhood' nonsense, yet we hear none of this now. Norway is the new SNP wet dream and it isn't even comparable any more because of the way Norway used their oil. We also hear about 'unique Nordic cultural ties' with Scotland which is rather amusing because another country with Nordic heritage lies directly south, it's neighbour England.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
That peculiar crap about the Orange Order, apropos of absolutely nothing. Cut it out, no-one wants it here.
Original post by L i b
That peculiar crap about the Orange Order, apropos of absolutely nothing. Cut it out, no-one wants it here.
What I said wasn't religious bigotry in the slightest. Think before you type.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
What I said wasn't religious bigotry in the slightest. Think before you type.
Absolute codswallop. If someone comes in ranting about one side of a sectarian divide for no reason whatsoever, bringing that into a debate, then it's bloody relevant. I think we all know fine well it wasn't just a random outburst.
As I've said, we don't want this sort of talk here or anywhere else in Scottish politics. It's an absolute blight on this place.
Original post by L i b
Absolute codswallop. If someone comes in ranting about one side of a sectarian divide for no reason whatsoever, bringing that into a debate, then it's bloody relevant. I think we all know fine well it wasn't just a random outburst.
As I've said, we don't want this sort of talk here or anywhere else in Scottish politics. It's an absolute blight on this place.
As I've said, we don't want this sort of talk here or anywhere else in Scottish politics. It's an absolute blight on this place.
Again it wasn't religious bigotry. Think before you type.
Also you're not the creator of this thread nor a moderator of this forum. Stop talking on the behalf of others. You don't make the rules about what can or can't be posted in this thread.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Again it wasn't religious bigotry. Think before you type.
Also you're not the creator of this thread nor a moderator of this forum. Stop talking on the behalf of others. You don't make the rules about what can or can't be posted in this thread.
Also you're not the creator of this thread nor a moderator of this forum. Stop talking on the behalf of others. You don't make the rules about what can or can't be posted in this thread.
No, but I certainly think I speak for the vast majority of people involved in Scottish politics here. As I've said, it's a blight and we want none of it.
Now, I might be wrong about you, I suppose. It's entirely possible that you randomly blurted out nonsense about the Orange Order just as someone who isn't anti-semitic might make some throwaway reference to the Jews for no good reason whatsoever.
But you know what? I don't buy it. I know enough about human nature to know exactly where you were going with that kind of remark, and it's a very ugly and unpleasant road.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Religious bigotry? I'd like you to explain that one.
Well you were the one that tried to link it to support for voting no. So please feel free to expand on the issue yourself.
Original post by L i b
No, but I certainly think I speak for the vast majority of people involved in Scottish politics here. As I've said, it's a blight and we want none of it.
Now, I might be wrong about you, I suppose. It's entirely possible that you randomly blurted out nonsense about the Orange Order just as someone who isn't anti-semitic might make some throwaway reference to the Jews for no good reason whatsoever.
But you know what? I don't buy it. I know enough about human nature to know exactly where you were going with that kind of remark, and it's a very ugly and unpleasant road.
Now, I might be wrong about you, I suppose. It's entirely possible that you randomly blurted out nonsense about the Orange Order just as someone who isn't anti-semitic might make some throwaway reference to the Jews for no good reason whatsoever.
But you know what? I don't buy it. I know enough about human nature to know exactly where you were going with that kind of remark, and it's a very ugly and unpleasant road.
Very nice. Could've used some references to Hitler or the Nazis just to make it even sweeter.
The Orange Order isn't a religion. It unfortunately attachs itself to the religion I was raised in. Not to mention I clearly said "some orange bigots". Are you trying to deny the Orange Order has some bigots? I can show plenty of examples showing otherwise if you like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
I recommend the "Relationship with the Klu Klux Klan" and "Relationship with the Loyalist Paramilitaries" sections.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Well you were the one that tried to link it to support for voting no. So please feel free to expand on the issue yourself.
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?
If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?
If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
I'm catholic and am definitely not linked to the orange order and I'll be voting no.
Shall I start making links between nationalism and fascism? The SNP likes to keep that part of its history quiet.
I'll tell you what. If you grow up, act mature and stop trying to sling mud, I won't delve too deeply into the SNP and its supporters less that glorious history.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Very nice. Could've used some references to Hitler or the Nazis just to make it even sweeter.
The Orange Order isn't a religion. It unfortunately attachs itself to the religion I was raised in. Not to mention I clearly said "some orange bigots". Are you trying to deny the Orange Order has some bigots? I can show plenty of examples showing otherwise if you like.
The Orange Order isn't a religion. It unfortunately attachs itself to the religion I was raised in. Not to mention I clearly said "some orange bigots". Are you trying to deny the Orange Order has some bigots? I can show plenty of examples showing otherwise if you like.
I'm sure every significant organisation has bigots in it. The Orange Order is a religious-based organisation. Randomly having a go at it for no reason whatsoever makes you look like a bigot yourself.
And hell, we don't need to go as far as the Nazis, if someone comes in here mouthing off about fenians or the Scots-Irish or whatever, they'd get exactly the same response.
Original post by DOM Alpha Badboy
Are we talking about my reference to the Orange Order?
If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
If so then here's a quote straight from the Orange Order wikipedia:
"Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to Unionism"
Indeed, they probably are, most religious groups have a broad political slant. I imagine given their membership numbers, it won't be universal though. Not to mention that they opposed the union with Ireland back in the day because they thought it might lead to Catholic emancipation.
People like Ian Paisley are not unionists though. They are Protestant Ulster nationalists, who simply see ties with the UK as relatively convenient. Try imposing UK social policy on them and they'll be up in arms - which is why abortion wasn't decriminalised in NI.
(edited 10 years ago)
Comment by Peter Kellner of Yougov:
YouGov has conducted four surveys in the past three months. Our latest was conducted last week for the Scottish Sun. Stripping out the (modest) number of don’t knows, each survey has shown 39-40% in favour of independence and 60-61% against.
The ‘yes’ and ‘no’ blocks look equally solid and utterly distinct. They differ completely in their party loyalties and their expectations of what an independent Scotland would look like.
Here’s the evidence. First, party loyalties. SNP supporters divide 90-10% in favour of independence; Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat supporters divide 90-10% against independence. Alex Salmond’s biggest problem is that the three ‘British’ parties collectively outscore the SNP by three-to-two. Hence the three-to-two margin in favour of ‘Better Together’.
Second, how Scots view the practical consequences of Scotland going its own way. Eight out of ten supporters of independence think people like them will become better off; eight out of ten opponents expect to be worse off. On taxes, pensions, schools and Scotland’s influence in the world, ‘yes’ voters expect sharply different things. And those differences are growing, rather than narrowing.
What about Scottish reactions to the joint announcement by the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems that they would reject a currency union with an independent Scotland? By 79-10%, ‘yes’ supporters think London is bluffing; by 73-11%, ‘no’ voters believe London means it.
The story is much the same regarding the likelihood of an independent Scotland staying in the European Union. 70% of ‘yes’ voters reckon that their country would be EU members from day one – a view shared by just 15% of ‘no’ voters
Men divide evenly, 48% for independence, 52% against. In contrast, women divide 68-32% against independence. That excludes don’t knows – and there are many more women (16%) than men (7%) who have yet to take sides. In general, women are more fearful of the practical consequences of independence.
YouGov has conducted four surveys in the past three months. Our latest was conducted last week for the Scottish Sun. Stripping out the (modest) number of don’t knows, each survey has shown 39-40% in favour of independence and 60-61% against.
The ‘yes’ and ‘no’ blocks look equally solid and utterly distinct. They differ completely in their party loyalties and their expectations of what an independent Scotland would look like.
Here’s the evidence. First, party loyalties. SNP supporters divide 90-10% in favour of independence; Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat supporters divide 90-10% against independence. Alex Salmond’s biggest problem is that the three ‘British’ parties collectively outscore the SNP by three-to-two. Hence the three-to-two margin in favour of ‘Better Together’.
Second, how Scots view the practical consequences of Scotland going its own way. Eight out of ten supporters of independence think people like them will become better off; eight out of ten opponents expect to be worse off. On taxes, pensions, schools and Scotland’s influence in the world, ‘yes’ voters expect sharply different things. And those differences are growing, rather than narrowing.
What about Scottish reactions to the joint announcement by the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems that they would reject a currency union with an independent Scotland? By 79-10%, ‘yes’ supporters think London is bluffing; by 73-11%, ‘no’ voters believe London means it.
The story is much the same regarding the likelihood of an independent Scotland staying in the European Union. 70% of ‘yes’ voters reckon that their country would be EU members from day one – a view shared by just 15% of ‘no’ voters
Men divide evenly, 48% for independence, 52% against. In contrast, women divide 68-32% against independence. That excludes don’t knows – and there are many more women (16%) than men (7%) who have yet to take sides. In general, women are more fearful of the practical consequences of independence.
Original post by Teaddict
Comment by Peter Kellner of Yougov:
Interesting analysis. On that basis there won't be much movement.
One of the defining characteristics of this campaign, for me, is the truly astonishing propensity of the SNP to assume that others (the EU, the UN, NATO, UK government, the BoE, the people of Britain) either have views that align with theirs or will ignore their own principles and best interests and do exactly what the SNP says is best for Scotland.
They expect the EU to change its rules and for its members to ignore their own self-interest in order to make Scotland a special case, and the UK is expected to submerge its own best interests and risk its banking system (with the small recompense of transaction costs savings) to give Scotland an easy ride on its currency, for example.
This is exemplified again here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26424658
What he really means in the subtext, of course, is give us mates' rates when it comes to negotiations. He would be rather disappointed if it ever got to the point where he gets the chance to have such negotiations and I almost wish he did for that reason alone.
I think they'll look back on it and realise they went into the campaign with their arguments and expectations not fully thought through.
The referendum campaign is very different from what "we" especially those of you south of the border see. Better Together do not draw crowds to meetings, they won't send politicians, activists or councillors to debate in town halls and schools. They simply don't seem to be doing much out with the news studios of central Scotland and central London.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Original post by frazza77
The referendum campaign is very different from what "we" especially those of you south of the border see. Better Together do not draw crowds to meetings, they won't send politicians, activists or councillors to debate in town halls and schools. They simply don't seem to be doing much out with the news studios of central Scotland and central London.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Alex Salmond represented Banff and Buchan in Westminster for some time, and is now MSP for it. Given that he has represented the North East for so long, why does his government allocate below average spending to the councils there but above average spending to the central belt?
The region contributes more to the Scottish economy but doesn't benefit accordingly. Makes his comments about uneven distribution of wealth seem a little hypocritical.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Midlander
Alex Salmond represented Banff and Buchan in Westminster for some time, and is now MSP for it. Given that he has represented the North East for so long, why does his government allocate below average spending to the councils there but above average spending to the central belt?
The region contributes more to the Scottish economy but doesn't benefit accordingly. Makes his comments about uneven distribution of wealth seem a little hypocritical.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The region contributes more to the Scottish economy but doesn't benefit accordingly. Makes his comments about uneven distribution of wealth seem a little hypocritical.
Posted from TSR Mobile
First I've heard of this, I must admit. Although, living such a distance (150 miles) from that area makes it less likely that I'd hear about a regional issue like that. Only plausible explanation I could offer is that invest is needed sooner in some of the worst areas of the central belt.
Original post by frazza77
First I've heard of this, I must admit. Although, living such a distance (150 miles) from that area makes it less likely that I'd hear about a regional issue like that. Only plausible explanation I could offer is that invest is needed sooner in some of the worst areas of the central belt.
Aberdeen is rife with problems and Aberdeenshire even more so-Salmond knows this. The big difference is that the central belt, especially around Glasgow, is full of Labour voters whereas the NE is SNP territory-looks like he's trying to quite literally buy votes.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by frazza77
Only plausible explanation I could offer is that invest is needed sooner in some of the worst areas of the central belt.
No. The only plausible explanation is that there are more votes to be bought in the central belt.
Original post by frazza77
The referendum campaign is very different from what "we" especially those of you south of the border see. Better Together do not draw crowds to meetings, they won't send politicians, activists or councillors to debate in town halls and schools. They simply don't seem to be doing much out with the news studios of central Scotland and central London.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
Yes campaigners, whether SNP, Green, SSP, Yes Scotland, Labour for indy or Radical Independence campaigners seem to be struggling to decide where to go because there are events on so frequently. Yes are running events every night of the week and are having Super Saturdays where activists meet in an area and canvass in the streets. Even groups of few people are grabbing a table and a few leaflets and doing a stall outside supermarkets during the week.
It is also true to say that when presented with the evidence, people are more likely to vote Yes. You could also say that the worst things in this are politicians, Salmond is disliked by a lot of undecided voters, even to the point that some Yes campaigners don't like him. On the other hand, he's probably better than Darling, Cameron, Osbourne and the rest of the Tory cabinet who probably couldn't walk most of Scotland's streets without a security team. Real people in jeans and a polo shirt will win this referendum. People don't like the TV and media controlled nature of the debate. They want to ask questions, and with the fact Better Together are non existent on the streets most of the time, Yes will likely get stronger.
I'm a bit unsure as to where you're going with this. The no campaign isn't selling anything, but they do lay on events for preppie to attend.....its just that most people don't go because they've made their minds up.
The yes campaign do lay a lot if things on, but its the same people going to them. They're not convincing anybody other than those already convinced.
Yes has been stagnant for some time. You just need to look at the opinion polling for that.
You may also want to look at the demographics if support. Younger first time voters, especially the 16 to 18 year olds are more likely to vote no by a rather significant number the yes.
Why is this? The yes campaign are a disparate bunch ranging from romanticised nationalists, xenophobic nationalists and a whole bunch of fringe organisations like the greens and socialists. Many of who are shouty people who seem to think that the evils of capitalism will be destroyed.
Ask yourself the question of how many schools, colleges and universities have had mock referendums on the issue and compare their results with polling. Its all the same numbers.
Related discussions
- MA English Literature at St Andrews
- Introducing an Eelam flag emoticon on TSR
- Cambridge CS chances
- Modern Studies Higher
- Edinburgh vs Durham
- St Andrews 5 year VS England 4 year degrees
- Calling All Scottish Students!!
- how to study for national 5 English
- Realistically, do I have a shot of getting into vet med?
- Dentistry Backups?
- I've found St Andrews to be a racist university
- Should I do a nursing college course in S5?
- dentistry
- missing school
- PhD Funding Scottish History/Museums
- I feel like dropping out sometimes
- University Admissions Advice
- Is it bad that I DON'T want to be an 'independent woman'?
- Official University of Glasgow Offer Holders Thread for 2024 entry
- is common law at Glasgow competitive?
Latest
Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Even Europe’s far-right firebrands seem to sense Brexit is a disaster- The GuardianLast reply 2 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 4 days ago
Sunak rejects offer of youth mobility scheme between EU and UKLast reply 1 week ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Big Discussion #1: What should be top priority to protect the environment?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Where do you stand on the political spectrum (8values)? – Take a quiz here!Last reply 3 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 3 weeks ago
No progress made on half of UK government’s levelling-up targetsLast reply 3 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Even Europe’s far-right firebrands seem to sense Brexit is a disaster- The GuardianLast reply 2 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 4 days ago
Sunak rejects offer of youth mobility scheme between EU and UKLast reply 1 week ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Big Discussion #1: What should be top priority to protect the environment?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Where do you stand on the political spectrum (8values)? – Take a quiz here!Last reply 3 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 3 weeks ago
No progress made on half of UK government’s levelling-up targetsLast reply 3 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?
