Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

I'm unclear why you are in such deep denial. I'm being neither patronising nor cynical, just realistic; what I have suggested is pretty obvious. We will be in a negotiation and each side would be trying to get the best deal for itself. Any other approach would be electoral death for those involved. Surely you must agree with that? If that weren't the case the SNP would never suggest not taking debt, would it? That sounds like a negotiation to me.

You can already see from the opinion polls quoted earlier what the English think of currency union, and that opinion ignores the obvious technical and economic arguments against it.

You surely wouldn't be naïve enough to expect that the UK will continue to buy naval ships from an expensive shipyard that has become foreign, at the expense of its own industry? If we want to go abroad we would be far better served going somewhere offering financial advantages, like Korea. But we won't; we won't buy naval ships abroad at all.

Very good!

This shipbuilding argument is looked at 2 ways.

Better Together say we will lose those contracts. Maybe we would, though I'm not convinced, but if so, so be it.

Instead of refusing to confront a situation that you don't like and don't want to accept, and trying to hide behind personal attacks, why don't you read what I have said carefully and tell me why it won't happen like that? Perhaps you could use sensible logic and back up your arguments with evidence and explanation.

Why do you think the UK might be willing to change a centuries-old policy and export jobs and important technologies it has striven to protect abroad?

Because important technologies for the UK are already built abroad - another myth to claim otherwise. And BAE do the work have said time and again that the Clyde is the best place to build them. It'd cost far more in the long run to create the facilities and build them in England

You think the shipbuilders of the Clyde (and those in England) didn't try that?

So they are just hopeless compared to the likes of other European nations and nobody will employ them?! Odd.

So they are just hopeless compared to the likes of other European nations and nobody will employ them?! Odd.

What European shipbuilders? You do realise that Japan, South Korea and China between them build about 92% of all ships, don't you? The UK built four (yes, four) ships over 100 tonnes in 2012.

So, not odd.

If you want to pretend European countries have no shipbuilding industry crack on. I see Norway has 35,000 people employed in the industry and 500,000 throughout Europe. How many in the UK?

As for 92%, I'd like to see the evidence for that figure. I have it down as nearer 70

We were talking specifically about ships, not oil and gas rigs. There is a difference.

Try these figures: http://www.sajn.or.jp/e/statistics/Shipbuilding_Statistics_Mar2013e.pdf

As you can see, Europe's share is 1.3%.



Another personal attack, eh, following cynical and patronising? I'm now incapable of controlling myself.

That 1.3% is still worth 30-40bn annually and excludes oil rigs etc as you rightly pointed out.

This shipbuilding argument is looked at 2 ways.

Better Together say we will lose those contracts. Maybe we would, though I'm not convinced, but if so, so be it.

A forward thinking nation might consider a ship-building industry based not entirely on one possible client - the military. Maybe we could be building other ships, you know, like other countries do?!

You aren't very good with numbers, are you? The values in that document were in yen, not sterling, (one of which is worth about a ha'penny).

So the plan is to now build ships when the current ship building sector on the global scale is under capacity. The world can build more ships than it needs already. Just look at swan hunter and harland and wolf.

I didn't get the figures from there ya condescending sod!

Ha! And there was me thinking you didn't make personal attacks.

Hahahaha.

I just got a blue card for trolling. You couldn't make this up!!

I'll leave you guys to it, might pop back in early September, see how confident you all still are then.

So we shouldn't try? Brilliant!

The censorship going on around the debate is shocking. SPT have been hit by hundreds of complaints for "banning" a wings over Scotland advertisement enticing people to the website. Yet pro union newspapers are allowed to entice people to go to their websites....you couldn't make this up.

Not content with blocking people from debating on the better together facebook page, I made one point backing it up with stats and was banned...ridiculous.

And now you have a blue card for trolling...making you less likely to fight your case...didn't think TSR would be like that...some power hungry unionist mod perhaps?