Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Nope they should shut up and be grateful, the 6/7 regions of England should be at the top of the pile as they have a case, this referendum in my opinion should be much more polarised:

Yes- Complete severance, no £, no auto EU etc.
No- No more devolution.

Be grateful for what? Thats the kind of attitude that fuels nationalism. Scottish people have nothing to be 'grateful' for from Westminster, regardless of your views on the Yes No question.

You have a point about English devolution. Thats for the English to decide.

Your idea of a referendum would be pish. Referendums are to make one decision, the rest involves negotiation once that decision has been reached.

Reply 8241

JamesyC

Original post by Midlander

What more could Scotland want devolved? It's the vast swathes of England which have no autonomy which should be top of the list on this.

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England needs much more autonomy, you're right in that regard. Thats for the English to decide. On the other side of the coin, England for all intents and purposes, votes in the party of Government. Not Wales, Scotland or NI, we don't have 50 million people collectively yet are bound by the rules of Westminster.

The ability to control corporation tax would be massive for Scotland. I'm not sure if the Scottish government has this power, I assume it does not. NI faces the same problem - can't compete on investment with the Republic of Ireland, as they set a much lower corporation tax, therefore, get the investment.

Reply 8242

Scotch Whiskey

Original post by Cryptographic

See bold.

I did add my sources on to my original draft of my argument but the mods on TSR are slow, so I thought it would be best in order to add some meat to the bones of this so called "discussion" I could leave it out.

Your profile, makes you look like a Torie voter; my question to you is, how do you sleep at night? With the knowledge that spending on all public services where cut and privatised when the conservatives came to power.

Reply 8243

Snagprophet

Original post by Midlander

Funny, I don't recall 'Culloden live' or 'Falkirk live' or 'Flodden live' being held 'doon sooth'.

Culloden wasn't really English vs Scots. Can understand the other ones but I have a feeling it's like when England goes on about winning the world cup. Happened once, much like Bannockburn.

Reply 8244

Cryptographic

Original post by Scotch Whiskey

Yes I agree, I do not like the privatisation of the NHS or RM, don't lump all of us in together :wink:

.

But running an £150bn deficit isn't realistic or sustainable. P.S. It is Tory, not Torie. P.P.S. The cuts haven't been anywhere as severe as the cuts have been in other countries, one of which being America.

Reply 8245

MatureStudent36

Original post by Boab

So people never celebrate the battle of say Trafalgar, the Battle of Britain, D Day etc?

Trafalgar is by the navy. But that was a monumental battle for the RN.

The other two tend to be commemorated. Not celebrated.

Probably something to do with people still being alive who lived through them and the enormity of the back drop.

Reply 8246

Midlander

Original post by JamesyC

How can it be for the English to decide when we don't even have a parliament? Your example of Northern Ireland is also a very poor one. It receives the highest per capita spending out of the 4 states and support for the union is quite high there as the UK is investing sums which the ROI could not.

I agree that the English vote decides the overall outcome however vast swathes of it, like my home city Coventry, are sound Labour seats. I didn't get the government I wanted either, it doesn't mean I want secession. An independent Scotland would also find itself dominated by the most heavily populated areas.

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Reply 8247

Midlander

Original post by Snagprophet

Culloden wasn't really English vs Scots. Can understand the other ones but I have a feeling it's like when England goes on about winning the world cup. Happened once, much like Bannockburn.

Another false stereotype.

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Reply 8248

Boab

Original post by MatureStudent36

Trafalgar is by the navy. But that was a monumental battle for the RN.

What has that got to do with anything?

Millions of pounds were spent on celebrating the anniversary of the battle.

Reply 8249

Boab

Original post by Snagprophet

Context

You consider a cartoon character to be Dundee's greatest icon? Well as cartoon characters go Dennis ain't even in the mix, it is Desperate Dan that has a statue on the High St and Oor Wullie is much more beloved around here.

Reply 8250

Boab

Original post by JamesyC

Two people have argued that on this page. Scotland should be grateful, and other regions of England deserve more first!

Well, they should get off their arses and do something about it then. The SNP has existed for 80 years and a lot of hard work by a lot of people, most of whom would never live to see this day, did just that.

Reply 8251

Boab

Original post by Midlander

Another false stereotype.

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So was MS36's comment that it was Scots fighting Scots in all these battles. It was the Scots dying on the battlefield no doubt, but often lead by English commanders or those loyal to the English.

Reply 8252

Midlander

Original post by Boab

So every good thing in Scotland can be attributed to the SNP and nobody else? Investment of powers and money into provincial areas in England is underway but still in early stages. It should take precedence over a state which has been given a lot of concessions and cash over the last few decades.

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Reply 8253

Midlander

Original post by Boab

So was MS36's comment that it was Scots fighting Scots in all these battles. It was the Scots dying on the battlefield no doubt, but often lead by English commanders or those loyal to the English.

So Wallace was loyal to the Inglash?

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Reply 8254

Midlander

Original post by Boab

You're in Dundee? Come over to Fife some time :tongue:

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Reply 8255

MatureStudent36

Original post by Boab

What has that got to do with anything?

Millions of pounds were spent on celebrating the anniversary of the battle.

Was it?

We spend money commemorating things.

I tend to find its those without a grasp of history that try and argue this point.

I have no problem with taxpayers money being spent to commemorate pivotal moments in global history......especially when there's people still alive who had to endure it. Lest we forget and all that. but there comes a time (normally after 200 years) when members of society latch into some obscure historical event, twist it into a perceived wrong, and use it fir political gain.

I've git mates who were involved in excavating mass graves in the corner Yugoslavia. That was all kicked off by nationalists twisting and distorting centuries old historical events.

Reply 8256

MatureStudent36

Original post by Boab

So was MS36's comment that it was Scots fighting Scots in all these battles. It was the Scots dying on the battlefield no doubt, but often lead by English commanders or those loyal to the English.

Far from it. They were loyal to the crown. The Jacobite revolution was in effect a civil war. You can try and dress culloden up however you wish. But it was basically a nonce who thought he had a right to the throne. He tried to use nationalism and a perceived sense of victim hood to further his aims as well.

Reply 8257

Boab

Original post by MatureStudent36

Was it?

We spend money commemorating things.

You missed the point. I wasn't slating it. Midlander tried to insinuate Bannockburn live was anti-English by celebrating its anniversary. Trafalgar celebrations is just mere evidence that the English/British do it too!