The Gandalf argument against capital punishment

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” - Gandalf the Grey

Would you say this is a fair argument? We cannot give life to innocent people and so therefore we should not give death to those who are guilty of crimes.

Reply 1

PicardianSocialist

I don't support capital punishment, but I don't see the coherence of that argument. Furthermore, you can use the same argument against incarceration.

Reply 2

Really_now

Original post by PicardianSocialist

I don't support capital punishment, but I don't see the coherence of that argument. Furthermore, you can use the same argument against incarceration.

I don't think I get your point can you explain a bit more?. We can release people we put into prisons and put people into prisons people? It can happen both ways. That's why I prefer prisons to capital punishment because if you kill someone and you find out later whoops they are innocent (justice system isn't perfect so always possible) you can bring them back into society.

Reply 3

flugelr

I firmly hold the belief that we should base all of our laws on quotes from epic novels.

Reply 4

Really_now

Original post by flugelr

I firmly hold the belief that we should base all of our laws on quotes from epic novels.

Aye, It would make a better world.

Reply 5

El Salvador

False argument. That the world isn't perfect is not a valid reason not to try.

Reply 6

Axiomasher

Original post by flugelr

I firmly hold the belief that we should base all of our laws on quotes from epic novels.

Reply 7

Bulbasaur

Original post by clh_hilary

False argument. That the world isn't perfect is not a valid reason not to try.

Indeed - hence why capital punishment needs to be abandoned.

Reply 8

El Salvador

Original post by Bulbasaur

Indeed - hence why capital punishment needs to be abandoned.

I'm focusing on the invalidity of the argument.

Reply 9

scateslovescake

I don't know... I guess it makes sense, but death is a bit different to life. I suppose it seems the person who didn't deserve death's passing was harder to prevent than the person who deserves death's possible death. It's quite hard to explain, but I think when it comes to capital punishment, we shouldn't be thinking about whether many innocent people die who don't deserve it or not, you should strip it down to the crime committed and it's consequences.

Reply 10

Really_now

Original post by clh_hilary

False argument. That the world isn't perfect is not a valid reason not to try.

That could be argued both ways though. The world is not perfect and dealing out death and realising we were wrong would be bad seeing as we cannot bring them back.

Original post by scateslovescake

The consequences of sentencing an innocent man to death are very permanent indeed. As Gandalf says we cannot bring them back once we are gone, we do not have these powers over life and death so why use it as a tool. Would you let a five year old child drive a car? Bit of a stupid analogy but you wouldn't because they have not the skills to control it. Same with humans and the death penalty.

Reply 11

El Salvador

Original post by Really_now

That could be argued both ways though. The world is not perfect and dealing out death and realising we were wrong would be bad seeing as we cannot bring them back.

If you interpret it that way then yes it would be valid.

Reply 12

scateslovescake

Original post by Really_now

That could be argued both ways though. The world is not perfect and dealing out death and realising we were wrong would be bad seeing as we cannot bring them back.

The consequences of sentencing an innocent man to death are very permanent indeed. As Gandalf says we cannot bring them back once we are gone, we do not have these powers over life and death so why use it as a tool. Would you let a five year old child drive a car? Bit of a stupid analogy but you wouldn't because they have not the skills to control it. Same with humans and the death penalty.

A good point - you may have just changed my opinion :smile:

Reply 13

PicardianSocialist

Original post by Really_now

You can release someone from prison, but you can't give them back those years of their life. Similarly, you can't undo the psychological and physical abuse they endured, repair the relationships that were destroyed, or offer them the opportunities that were missed as a result of their incarceration. Don't get me wrong, I think incarceration is better than capital punishment, and I do think that the fact that incarceration is a not instantaneous, and therefore you can stop it if you find out the suspect is innocent, is one of its advantages. However, I also think we shouldn't let this blind us to the pitfalls of incarceration. Personally, I'd rather see more punishments carried out within communities and focused on reparation and rehabilitation.

Reply 14

Snagprophet

Original post by Really_now

To be fair. this was in response to Frodo making a stupid comment about killing Gollum for following them. It's not as if Gollum had harmed them. Surely he could've been tied up and kept prisoner somewhere if he's supposedly risking their mission. It's not like he was a threat to the fellowship as a whole.

Still don't know how Gollum got out of Moria with the Orcs and Balrog and Gandalf destroying the bridge while the watcher destroyed the western side of Moria entrance.

Reply 15

Sunny_Smiles

meh, throw serious criminals in with the crocodiles :lol:

Spoiler

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 16

Melancholy

Original post by Really_now

I'm not in favour of capital punishment, but this is an extremely weak argument.

I mean, it follows that we shouldn't attempt to lock up any criminals just because we couldn't completely right every wrong in the world.

Go to sleep, Gandelf, you're drunk.