Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

Scroll to see replies

Do figures like that reflect reality?

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/scotland/worry-as-foodbank-demand-increases-by-400-across-scotland-1.321756

People are coming out of poverty but resorting to food banks. It is a funny old world.

I have nothing against people organising foodbanks. They help people who have short-term shortages, whether there's been problems with paying their benefits or some other issues. I don't believe food aid is necessarily a bad thing in these circumstances, and is better than things like crisis loans, which had to be paid back and were readily abused anyway.

Foodbanks also reflect pressures far beyond shortage of income. Food prices globally have risen considerably - although we are now taking action internationally to try to address that.

Unlike statistics about people coming out of poverty, the number of foodbanks does not reflect much other than how many are established.

Reply 8281

Boab

Foodbanks reflect the reality of the situation that people find themselves in.

Statistics can prove whatever people wish them to.

Reply 8282

KevK92

Original post by flugelr

As I explained above, the rest of the UK also has the skills and technology.

Currently shipyards in Rosyth, Govan, Scotstoun, Hebburn, Middlesborough, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Falmouth, Appledore, Birkenhead, Barrow and Belfast are capable of shipbuilding, refitting and heavy fabrication.

You'll notice that 3 of those yards are in Scotland, 1 is in Northern Ireland and 8 are in England. After independence, why would an MP stand up in the House of Commons and say that the rUK Government is awarding large contracts to Scotland (a foreign country remember) at the expense of English and Northern Irish jobs?

It would be total career suicide. That is why it won't happen.

I suspect our shipbuilding industry would go the same way as the Irish one did. Currently the Irish Navy build their ships in the UK.

You do know that currently the UK government are already awarding large contracts to foreign countries, as you put it?

Reply 8283

Boab

Original post by KevK92

You do know that currently the UK government are already awarding large contracts to foreign countries, as you put it?

That and the fact BAE are pouring money into Scotstoun which will be the only option out of the docks mentioned capable of building these ships.

By all means they could build them elsewhere. Cost them a bit mind!

Reply 8284

flugelr

Original post by KevK92

You do know that currently the UK government are already awarding large contracts to foreign countries, as you put it?

If you are not going to read my post, why did you even bother replying?

The ships being built in South Korea are not warships and they are not being built for the Royal Navy. Furthermore, they are not a large contract. The contract to a South Korean shipyard is worth £400 Million, the Type 45 contract was worth £6 Billion to UK (mainly Scottish) shipyards.

The major Scottish shipyards depend on warship contracts. Indeed, none of the Scottish shipyards were able to build the tankers because they had full order books due to the T45 and CVF projects.

If we go for independence, we will not get warship orders from rUK Government.

Original post by Boab

That and the fact BAE are pouring money into Scotstoun which will be the only option out of the docks mentioned capable of building these ships.

They are pouring money into Scotstoun because it is a better site with room to develop better facilities. BAE also own Scotstoun whereas they have to lease Govan from Clydeport. The guys at Govan will mostly move to Scotstoun.

Reply 8285

Cryptographic

Original post by KevK92

You do know that currently the UK government are already awarding large contracts to foreign countries, as you put it?

If there are then between giving a contract to Korea, where it would be cheaper, or to Scotland, whom most of rUK's electorate thinks has just spurned it.

Which one would you give it to if you wanted to see government in the next decade?

Reply 8286

Boab

Original post by Cryptographic

I love how NO go from, 'UK doesn't award contracts overseas, so Scotland won't get them' to 'Scotland will have pissed rUK off so won't get them'!

Who knows where the contracts will go? People who say definitively are just making it up so best ignored.

In my opinion, would BAE wouldn't be investing so much money in the Clyde if they weren't confident, and I'm guessing they have more idea than anyone on this forum.

Reply 8287

Cryptographic

Original post by Boab

I love how NO go from, 'UK doesn't award contracts overseas, so Scotland won't get them' to 'Scotland will have pissed rUK off so won't get them'!

Ok let me give you an example.

Your wife has been dependant on you for most of your marriage but recently her business has really taken off. Therefore she has left you and is demanding lots of concessions in the divorce case.

You then need to go buy something, will you use your wife's shop or another shop which is cheaper?

Reply 8288

Boab

Weird analogy.

If we're looking for the cheap option, which is fair enough, what is the cheap option?

Is it Korea or the custom built docks on the Clyde? I don't know, but I'm guessing BAE may hold an advantage in gaining these contracts. BAE being a private company as well, which many seem to forget when talking about national security.

Reply 8289

KevK92

Original post by flugelr

Original post by Cryptographic

I've never once suggested that they would award large contracts to an independent Scotland. I agree that we'd struggle to keep hold of the agreements we supposedly have in place right now. However, you're doing the debate an injustice if you think a UK government has never given jobs to "foreign countries" in the past, for cheaper labour.

Reply 8290

flugelr

Original post by Boab

Who knows where the contracts will go? People who say definitively are just making it up so best ignored.

Please tell me when the UK last awarded a major warship contract to a foreign shipyard.

Original post by Boab

In my opinion, would BAE wouldn't be investing so much money in the Clyde if they weren't confident, and I'm guessing they have more idea than anyone on this forum.

They are confident. Confident that Scotland will stay in the UK.

Original post by KevK92

They have given jobs to foreign companies, but never for building warships. That is a very important distinction, especially as thousands of Scottish jobs are dependent on building those warships.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 8291

L i b

Original post by Boab

Statistics can prove whatever people wish them to.

I'm afraid I don't buy into that rather cynical view of facts!

Original post by Boab

I love how NO go from, 'UK doesn't award contracts overseas, so Scotland won't get them' to 'Scotland will have pissed rUK off so won't get them'!

We're actually fairly specific, as it is only fairly specific contracts the UK can restrict to within its own borders. But the fact remains that the UK has not built one of these complex warships, which the Clyde specialises in, outside its borders since the Second World War and has no inclination to do so.

As with any major country, the UK will want to retain and develop domestic shipbuilding capacity. That will cost extra, yes, but as the UK has already demonstrated it is willing to pay extra for that.

Overseas contracts will most likely continue to go overseas.

In my opinion, would BAE wouldn't be investing so much money in the Clyde if they weren't confident, and I'm guessing they have more idea than anyone on this forum.

I suspect they're quite confident about the referendum outcome.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 8292

Boab

Original post by flugelr

Please tell me when the UK last awarded a major warship contract to a foreign shipyard.

They are confident. Confident that Scotland will stay in the UK.

They have given jobs to foreign companies, but never for building warships. That is a very important distinction, especially as thousands of Scottish jobs are dependent on building those warships.

It has never needed to, since it already has the facilities. This wouldn't be the case post-independence.

I think BAE don't spend hundreds of millions on a hunch.

Reply 8293

Boab

Original post by L i b

I'm afraid I don't buy into that rather cynical view of facts!

And the fact remains that there has been a 400% increase in the use of food banks which isn't a short-term fix but a constant humiliating necessity for those people that according to your facts are coming out of poverty.

Reply 8294

flugelr

Original post by Boab

It has never needed to, since it already has the facilities. This wouldn't be the case post-independence.

A&P, Harland & Wolff, Cammell Laird, Appledore, PSC and Babcock all have the facilities and the experience.

Original post by Boab

I think BAE don't spend hundreds of millions on a hunch.

They haven't spent it yet.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 8295

Boab

Original post by flugelr

A&P, Harland & Wolff, Cammell Laird, Appledore, PSC and Babcock all have the facilities and the experience.

They haven't spent it yet.

They do not have the facilities for building these ships, not even close!

Reply 8296

Good bloke

You can think wishfully all you like but the Type 26 frigate contract won't be signed until after the referendum and the British government is unlikely in the extreme to commission major warships from abroad in peacetime. It would rightly face a massive backlash from voters and British suppliers alike for not protecting British jobs and for commissioning such vital defence assets abroad. It just won't happen, and nobody in their right mind could possibly think it will. We already pay a significant premium to build in Britain and will continue to do so.

Not even Nicola Sturgeon is now trying to make a case that it will, preferring to talk about supporting "our shipyards through our own naval procurement, support for exports and, where it is appropriate, diversification away from military contracts".

The writing would be on the wall for Scottish military shipyard workers, though they could always move to Portsmouth or Barrow. BAE is hoping and expecting that Scotland will remain within the UK, and I assume its executives will increasing wear brown suits if the polls show the vote getting significantly closer.

Any relaxation of the policy (which won't happen, but let's deal with the hypothetical question anyway) would have to result in major benefits to Britain, and the only valid one would be to buy the ships considerably cheaper. Scotland obviously can't do that (as, if it could, it would be doing it already) but Japan or South Korea can.

Reply 8297

Midlander

Original post by Boab

The cost of food is a bigger problem than people's income. Also, not to generalise but a surprising number of people struggle to pay bills but do manage to get the latest iPhone/iPad/miscellaneous gadget with little difficulty. Considering that our economic recovery is supposedly being driven by consumers I would suggest that the picture isn't as clear cut as you think.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 8298