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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Original post by Boab
Simply not true, even going by the argument you posted. English students pay back more as soon as they pass the career threshold of £28k average, which is A LOT of graduates!

Yes the English student does get a better maintenance loan than me, because if you had realised what I had stated already, I don't take one.

Therefore I have NO student debt. Thank you Mr Salmond.


Then you are quite fortunate as I know very few Scots who have managed without SAAS funding to get through university. My funding was roughly half comprised of a grant and the rest was a means tested loan. You also say that £6k is cheap for a catered hall-even with full maintenance I was living out of my overdraft to cover it.

Most people need maintenance loans to afford to attend university. SAAS support isn't that big so a lot of folk have to do part time work or live in their overdrafts to fill the gap. This is independent of tuition and puts off people a lot more as they are upfront costs.


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Original post by Midlander
Then you are quite fortunate as I know very few Scots who have managed without SAAS funding to get through university. My funding was roughly half comprised of a grant and the rest was a means tested loan. You also say that £6k is cheap for a catered hall-even with full maintenance I was living out of my overdraft to cover it.

Most people need maintenance loans to afford to attend university. SAAS support isn't that big so a lot of folk have to do part time work or live in their overdrafts to fill the gap. This is independent of tuition and puts off people a lot more as they are upfront costs.


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I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.
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Boab
The English students on the other hand seem thoroughly miffed that they have to pay when nobody else does. Weird that!
Original post by Boab
I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.


If you're local to Dundee that's possible but I'd bet that a fair number come from further afield. Those that do are in the position of having to find some way of covering their accommodation, course materials and food for the year off of SAAS and their family. If it wasn't for UK government maintenance loans and grants I couldn't have gone to university anywhere, regardless of the tuition fees being charged.


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Original post by Boab
Simply not true, even going by the argument you posted. English students pay back more as soon as they pass the career threshold of £28k average, which is A LOT of graduates!

Yes, but when you are earning £28k+ you can afford to start paying off more.

If you are a Scottish graduate and you are unable to get anything except a low-paying job then you will really struggle to pay back money if you are only on £16k or so.

Original post by Boab
Yes the English student does get a better maintenance loan than me, because if you had realised what I had stated already, I don't take one.

You are lucky you have that kind of money.

Original post by Boab
I am fortunate, but not unique. I know many at Dundee University who don't take the loan, preferring to remain at home and save that money. They get by, by getting part time jobs and paying their parents some board (well some of them!) to keep them happy. Often these are the ones from less affluent areas of the city.

Surely the point of university is to allow a young person to strike out on their own? What happens to those who come from less well off rural areas?

The fact remains that a poor Scottish kid is less likely to go to uni than a poor English, Welsh or Northern Irish kid.

Either poor Scottish students are stupider than their rUK counterparts, or they are failed by the Scottish education system.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Boab
The English students on the other hand seem thoroughly miffed that they have to pay when nobody else does. Weird that!


Not quite true considering that Welsh and NI students are charged in Scotland too.


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Original post by flugelr
The fact remains that a poor Scottish kid is less likely to go to uni than a poor English, Welsh or Northern Irish kid.

Either poor Scottish students are stupider than their rUK counterparts, or they are failed by the Scottish education system.


The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.

Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.
Original post by Boab
The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.

Yet we have absolutely no evidence that it makes any difference.

Original post by Boab
Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.

Yes, Scotland will be a land of milk and honey.
Original post by Boab
The fact remains that the NUS supports free tuition, as does pretty much every student I've ever talked to.

Also in an independent Scotland, we would hope to go further, whereas in England you are going to get smashed with even higher fees in the future.


The question is how free education is going to be kept affordable in iScotland if it joins the EU. I just don't see how it can without raising taxes considerably. There is also the wider impact upon research going on in Scottish universities. The UK research councils award the institutions disproportionately more than they should get based on Scotland's population-if it leaves the UK it's difficult to see how this research can continue to be funded to the same level.


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Original post by flugelr
Yet we have absolutely no evidence that it makes any difference.


Yes, Scotland will be a land of milk and honey.


Original post by Midlander
I just don't see how it can without raising taxes considerably
-if it leaves the UK it's difficult to see how this research can continue to be funded to the same level.Posted from TSR Mobile


Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:

Mental, why so many of us want it, eh?!
Original post by Boab
Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:

Mental, why so many of us want it, eh?!


Rather than make snide remarks why not address the substance of what people are saying?


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Original post by Boab
Quite Scotland will be the land of armageddon and bee stings after Independence! :rolleyes:

From what we've seen so far, it'll be a land of people who avoid answering questions. I'm still waiting to hear about all these military training facilities Scotland has and why we won't have to pay rUK to train Scottish troops.
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Original post by Midlander
Rather than make snide remarks why not address the substance of what people are saying?


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Really. You are going to come at me with the 'snide remark' accusation?

Shall we go back through this thread to look at whether snide is a predominantly Unionist or Nationalist trait? I think you may lose that one!
Original post by flugelr
From what we've seen so far, it'll be a land of people who avoid answering questions. I'm still waiting to hear about all these military training facilities Scotland has and why we won't have to pay rUK to train Scottish troops.


The question on research funding is quite a pertinent one. Ask how the funding is going to be maintained and you get sarcasm back.


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Original post by flugelr
From what we've seen so far, it'll be a land of people who avoid answering questions. I'm still waiting to hear about all these military training facilities Scotland has and why we won't have to pay rUK to train Scottish troops.


What, like David Cameron, George Osbourne, Danny Alexander, Phillip Hammond et al that pop up north of the border, tell us how we'll be doomed without rUK before running away without answering any questions?
Original post by Boab
Really. You are going to come at me with the 'snide remark' accusation?

Shall we go back through this thread to look at whether snide is a predominantly Unionist or Nationalist trait? I think you may lose that one!


Vintage Boab and his straw man making another appearance. More laughable than your insistence that Westminster is lying on a currency union.


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Original post by Midlander
The question on research funding is quite a pertinent one. Posted from TSR Mobile


Because research funding doesn't only come from government and the concept that money is moveable.
Because Scotland can choose to keep up that level of funding at the expense of a programme where money is disproportionately allocated places other than Scotland.
Original post by Boab
What, like David Cameron, George Osbourne, Danny Alexander, Phillip Hammond et al that pop up north of the border, tell us how we'll be doomed without rUK before running away without answering any questions?

Or indeed Alex Salmond poppping south of the border. Politicians are always going to be politicians.

Still not going to answer my questions on defence then? Post 8647, page 433.
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Original post by Midlander
Vintage Boab and his straw man making another appearance. More laughable than your insistence that Westminster is lying on a currency union.


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I remember last time you brought up that straw man mantra. I don't even think you understand it, given its latest appearance!

Ah yes your utter pathetic attempt to label being anti-westminster as anti-english!

As for my laughable insistence. It's not just me, Phillip Hammond thinks it too :eek:
Original post by Boab
Because research funding doesn't only come from government and the concept that money is moveable.
Because Scotland can choose to keep up that level of funding at the expense of a programme where money is disproportionately allocated places other than Scotland.


All research councils are funded by the UK taxpayer. Other grants come from the EU and these will be under threat if Scotland fails to get entry come 2016.

However it is at undergraduate level where the SNP will face a bigger test. The EU will not allow iScotland to continue charging RUK students and no other member states, so how do you propose that free tuition is maintained without incurring massive expense for the RUK applicants?


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