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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?
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Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 3:
Original post by MatureStudent36
A good chunk of which was created in Scotland as well. Let's not forget that. Or should we forget the baking collapse that Scottish banks, backed by Salmond led the way.
Truth:
The banking collapse happened under the incompetence of Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and the London based Financial regulator, NOT under the watch of Alex Salmond.
RBS chief Fred Goodwin was given a knighthood by Westminster, NOT by Alex Salmond.
The gambling department of RBS did its gambling which led to the collapse from London, NOT from Edinburgh.
RBS's major operations, through its subsidiary National Westminster Bank, were in England, NOT in Scotland.
Bank of Scotland's major operations, through its subsidiary Halifax, were in England, NOT in Scotland.
The banks were bailed out by the countries according to the proportion in which they carried out their businesses. The USA put in much more money to bail out UK banks than the UK.
The UK BORROWED and PRINTED money to bail out banks.
Whatever an independent Scotland would have done is THEORETICAL.
Scotland could have contributed ITS share of the bailout. It is a lie to claim that Scotland would have had to bailout the entire UK operations of RBS + Natwest or Bank of Scotland + Halifax.
Alex Salmond wished good luck to Fred Goodwin in the acquisition of AMRO bank in the anticipation that it would bring benefits to Scotland. He was in no way aware of or responsible for the decision making at RBS. So it is complete lie to claim "backed by Salmond".
Northern Rock, a bank in England, "led the way", not RBS.
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 4:
Original post by VladThe1mpaler
There is a difference between being anti-English and anti-Westminster
Original post by Midlander
If there is a difference I am yet to see it.
Truth:
Original post by Boab
How about the English who live in Scotland and get a vote? The poll shows 28% of them will vote YES. By your logic they too, are anti-English! How bizarre.
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 5:
Original post by Midlander
We still haven't had your opinion on England stealing Scottish territory, MT.
Truth: The FACT was already pointed out but you are unable to accept the truth:
Original post by Maths Tutor
"The government has been asked to reconsider the decision to transfer 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters off the Berwickshire coast to English jurisdication."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/398670.stm
"In 1999, just before the UK Government devolved a range of domestic powers to Scotland, British Ministers introduced legislation that redrew the previous maritime boundary between Scotland and England.
The new boundary extended 200 miles in a north-west direction and placed 6000 square miles of previously Scottish waters under English legal control.
The move was widely criticised at the time and seen as an attempt by the British Government to secure rights to oil and gas fields in the North Sea should Scotland eventually become independent.
Now the Scottish Government has restated its intention to reclaim the disputed waters in the event of Scottish independence."
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140422/189312524/Scottish-Ministers-Will-Seek-Return-Of-Disputed-Waters-Following.html
"The government has been asked to reconsider the decision to transfer 6,000 square miles of Scottish waters off the Berwickshire coast to English jurisdication."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/398670.stm
"In 1999, just before the UK Government devolved a range of domestic powers to Scotland, British Ministers introduced legislation that redrew the previous maritime boundary between Scotland and England.
The new boundary extended 200 miles in a north-west direction and placed 6000 square miles of previously Scottish waters under English legal control.
The move was widely criticised at the time and seen as an attempt by the British Government to secure rights to oil and gas fields in the North Sea should Scotland eventually become independent.
Now the Scottish Government has restated its intention to reclaim the disputed waters in the event of Scottish independence."
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140422/189312524/Scottish-Ministers-Will-Seek-Return-Of-Disputed-Waters-Following.html
Original post by Maths Tutor
I would say that England stole 6000 square miles of Scottish territory.
Of course by your usual impartial, non-biased and objective standards, you will extrapolate that as me being anti-English. I am not anti-English, I am anti-theft.
I am sure TSR's self styled legal expert L i b will clarify what international law says on this matter.
Of course by your usual impartial, non-biased and objective standards, you will extrapolate that as me being anti-English. I am not anti-English, I am anti-theft.
I am sure TSR's self styled legal expert L i b will clarify what international law says on this matter.
Original post by Boab
Also seem to be ignoring the point that the £9k limit seems set to rise, and its predicted quite drastically.
If Labour win (probable) in 2015 the £9k limit will likely drop to £6k...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by arfah
Nonsense.
It's actually quite true. The Labour would have won in 1997, 2001 and 2005 even without Scottish votes...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 6:
Original post by L i b
We have a more proportional system for electing the Scottish Parliament than we do for the UK Parliament elections, however it is clearly still a far way off being proportional. Note how we have a majority government elected without being close to a majority of the popular vote.
Truth: The Scottish parliament is NOT a "far way off being proportional" and it HAS 'proportional representation', unlike Westminster.
Unlike your beloved Westminster parliament where little more than 30% of the popular vote can result in 'landslide' wins in parliament.
45% of the votes cast giving a majority in the Scottish parliament is much more democratic than the little more than 30% of the votes cast giving a 'landslide' majority in Westminster.
How many Tory MSPs would we have if we had Westminster style 'democracy'?
The Tory leader Ruth Davidson came a miserable 4th in her constituency with about 8% of the votes cast.
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 7:
Original post by L i b
Well, Scotland couldn't negotiate entry during that time. Article 49 TEU is quite clear that you have to be a "European state" to negotiate entry or membership. Scotland would not be one of those until the date of independence.
In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.
In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.
Truth: After a YES vote in September, the SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT WILL (NOT "could") have negotiations with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland BECOMES INDEPENDENT (NOT "separates off").
Who in their right mind would believe that after a YES vote in September, Cameron, Hague and Clegg will go around the EU negotiating Scotland's entry to it?
Original post by Maths Tutor
Lie number 6:
Truth: The Scottish parliament is NOT a "far way off being proportional" and it HAS 'proportional representation', unlike Westminster.
Unlike your beloved Westminster parliament where little more than 30% of the popular vote can result in 'landslide' wins in parliament.
45% of the votes cast giving a majority in the Scottish parliament is much more democratic than the little more than 30% of the votes cast giving a 'landslide' majority in Westminster.
How many Tory MSPs would we have if we had Westminster style 'democracy'?
The Tory leader Ruth Davidson came a miserable 4th in her constituency with about 8% of the votes cast.
Truth: The Scottish parliament is NOT a "far way off being proportional" and it HAS 'proportional representation', unlike Westminster.
Unlike your beloved Westminster parliament where little more than 30% of the popular vote can result in 'landslide' wins in parliament.
45% of the votes cast giving a majority in the Scottish parliament is much more democratic than the little more than 30% of the votes cast giving a 'landslide' majority in Westminster.
How many Tory MSPs would we have if we had Westminster style 'democracy'?
The Tory leader Ruth Davidson came a miserable 4th in her constituency with about 8% of the votes cast.
When has there ever been a 'landslide' victory on a popular vote in the 30s?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 8:
Original post by L i b
In essence, possibly. But it would be the UK government that would finally be signing any agreement on the dotted line. I'd disagree with your characterisation of the Scottish government as an 'organ' of the UK government - it is for the UK government to ensure the Scottish government abides by international law for example, but it is constitutionally autonomous in most of its actions.
Truth: SCOTLAND will finally sign any agreement on the dotted line when it is INDEPENDENT, NOT rUK.
In which universe does one country sign agreements on behalf of a 'foreign' country?
Original post by Maths Tutor
Lie number 8:
Truth: SCOTLAND will finally sign any agreement on the dotted line when it is INDEPENDENT, NOT rUK.
In which universe does one country sign agreements on behalf of a 'foreign' country?
Truth: SCOTLAND will finally sign any agreement on the dotted line when it is INDEPENDENT, NOT rUK.
In which universe does one country sign agreements on behalf of a 'foreign' country?
The same universe that requires every member state of the EU to agree on an outside nation becoming a member. Sorry.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by euphful
When has there ever been a 'landslide' victory on a popular vote in the 30s?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
Original post by Maths Tutor
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
In 1997 Labour was elected, with a landslide result, on 43.2% of the vote. Higher than any number between 30-39.
In 2001 Labour was elected, with a landslide result, on 40.7% of the vote (with a much reduced turnout). Again, higher than the number you gave of in the 30s
In 2005 Labour won but not with a landslide. Your assertion was on landslides with not much more than 30%... Care to try again?
By the way, I'm an advocate of PR and electoral reform, I just couldn't let yet another nationalist make it up as they go along.
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Maths Tutor
In which universe does one country sign agreements on behalf of a 'foreign' country?
Original post by euphful
The same universe that requires every member state of the EU to agree on an outside nation becoming a member. Sorry.
Other countries AGREEING to accept a country as a member is the same as ONE COUNTRY SIGNING ANOTHER COUNTRY'S MEMBERSHIP AGREEMENT ON ITS BEHALF in your opinion?
Original post by euphful
In 1997 Labour was elected, with a landslide result, on 43.2% of the vote. Higher than any number between 30-39.
In 2001 Labour was elected, with a landslide result, on 40.7% of the vote (with a much reduced turnout). Again, higher than the number you gave of in the 30s
In 2005 Labour won but not with a landslide. Your assertion was on landslides with not much more than 30%... Care to try again?
By the way, I'm an advocate of PR and electoral reform, I just couldn't let yet another nationalist make it up as they go along.
In 2001 Labour was elected, with a landslide result, on 40.7% of the vote (with a much reduced turnout). Again, higher than the number you gave of in the 30s
In 2005 Labour won but not with a landslide. Your assertion was on landslides with not much more than 30%... Care to try again?
By the way, I'm an advocate of PR and electoral reform, I just couldn't let yet another nationalist make it up as they go along.
As you have failed to answer the question fully, let me repeat it:
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
Original post by Maths Tutor
Other countries AGREEING to accept a country as a member is the same as ONE COUNTRY SIGNING ANOTHER COUNTRY'S MEMBERSHIP AGREEMENT ON ITS BEHALF in your opinion?
Well of course, if Scotland was going to enter the EU through treaty change then the only way to bring about that change within the mechanisms of the EU would be for the UK (as the member state) to negotiate that, if Scotland wanted a deal before Independence Day. Otherwise they could wait for independence and then apply externally. Do you know how the EU works at all? I can promise you I've got an exam on it in a few weeks and it's wry dry and very dull if you're not in to that sort of thing. It is not, however, as simple as you seem to be suggesting. Scotland can't negotiate anything until it is independent.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
As you have failed to answer the question fully, let me repeat it:
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
Your assertion was that FPTP delivered landslide results on vote-shares in their 30s. I asked you when this had happened. You changed the goal posts and now that you've realised that your assertion that landslide results happen on vote shares in the 30s is a load of twoddle you're desperately trying to save face. I'm not interested in debating the merits of FPTP with you, just in debunking this myth that you peddled regarding landslide results and vote shares.
The burden of proof is on you my friend, I'm not here to answer questions that you should be answering in response to your wild claims.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1983 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Thatcher get in 1987 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 1997 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2001 and what % of the seats?
What % of the vote did Blair get in 2005 and what % of the seats?
I asked you when there had been a landslide result for any party with a vote share in the 30s. You made that assertion, I asked you when it had happened. It is not up to me to answer questions not even relating to the original assertion.
Back up your claim or retract it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
Lie number 6:
Truth: The Scottish parliament is NOT a "far way off being proportional" and it HAS 'proportional representation', unlike Westminster.
Unlike your beloved Westminster parliament where little more than 30% of the popular vote can result in 'landslide' wins in parliament.
45% of the votes cast giving a majority in the Scottish parliament is much more democratic than the little more than 30% of the votes cast giving a 'landslide' majority in Westminster.
How many Tory MSPs would we have if we had Westminster style 'democracy'?
The Tory leader Ruth Davidson came a miserable 4th in her constituency with about 8% of the votes cast.
Truth: The Scottish parliament is NOT a "far way off being proportional" and it HAS 'proportional representation', unlike Westminster.
Unlike your beloved Westminster parliament where little more than 30% of the popular vote can result in 'landslide' wins in parliament.
45% of the votes cast giving a majority in the Scottish parliament is much more democratic than the little more than 30% of the votes cast giving a 'landslide' majority in Westminster.
How many Tory MSPs would we have if we had Westminster style 'democracy'?
The Tory leader Ruth Davidson came a miserable 4th in her constituency with about 8% of the votes cast.
Just so you can see this clearly, can you again please tell us when there has ever been a landslide victory for any party who received a vote share in the 30s?
I've given you examples of recent landslide results which disprove your assertion. Maybe you could clarify your statement for us?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Maths Tutor
The likes of yourself, L i b and Midlander will never change your spots.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
No matter how many times your lies have been exposed, you return with the same ones again and again and again.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Which lies would they be?
Lie number 9:
Original post by L i b
As I've said before, I'm done wasting my time being your unremunerated personal tutor to be met only with abuse and lunatic rants.
Truth: L i b hates to be caught out lying and is forced to follow one lie with another:
Lie number 2:
Original post by MatureStudent36
A good chunk of which was created in Scotland as well.
Truth: Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland.
The Scottish government, to date, has only spent the money it receives from Westminster, not a penny more.
Original post by L i b
I think we are all quite aware that Scotland has run a budget deficit fairly consistently - in fact, in 20 of the last 21 years! A good portion of that national debt is attributable to, and was spent on, Scotland.
Quite frankly the bizarre misreading of what was said to imply that it's somehow the office block a decision was made in that matters just makes you look foolish.
Quite frankly the bizarre misreading of what was said to imply that it's somehow the office block a decision was made in that matters just makes you look foolish.
Truth needs to be repeated:
Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland or BY Scotland.
The decisions were made at Westminster and the funds squandered to fund illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction.
An independent Scotland would have spent and borrowed if necessary according to Scotland's needs, not Westminster's needs.
Almost every developed country has been running a budget deficit for many years.
Don't quote dodgy figures which don't include all Scotland's revenues but include a share of Westminster's expenses on illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction, not to mention the unelected House of Lords where the likes of Lord 'Bomb Edinburgh & Glasgow airports' Fraser of Carmyllie claim £300 per day in expenses for just turning up.
IF AND ONLY IF you want to know the TRUTH about what revenues Scotland has contributed to the Westminster Treasury, look here:
WARNING: NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/
http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-the-oil-the-deluge/
Original post by Maths Tutor
Lie number 9:
Truth: L i b hates to be caught out lying and is forced to follow one lie with another:
Lie number 2:
Truth: Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland.
The Scottish government, to date, has only spent the money it receives from Westminster, not a penny more.
Truth needs to be repeated:
Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland or BY Scotland.
The decisions were made at Westminster and the funds squandered to fund illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction.
An independent Scotland would have spent and borrowed if necessary according to Scotland's needs, not Westminster's needs.
Almost every developed country has been running a budget deficit for many years.
Don't quote dodgy figures which don't include all Scotland's revenues but include a share of Westminster's expenses on illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction, not to mention the unelected House of Lords where the likes of Lord 'Bomb Edinburgh & Glasgow airports' Fraser of Carmyllie claim £300 per day in expenses for just turning up.
IF AND ONLY IF you want to know the TRUTH about what revenues Scotland has contributed to the Westminster Treasury, look here:
WARNING: NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/
http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-the-oil-the-deluge/
Truth: L i b hates to be caught out lying and is forced to follow one lie with another:
Lie number 2:
Truth: Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland.
The Scottish government, to date, has only spent the money it receives from Westminster, not a penny more.
Truth needs to be repeated:
Not a single penny of the 1.3 TRILLION POUNDS UK National Debt was created IN Scotland or BY Scotland.
The decisions were made at Westminster and the funds squandered to fund illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction.
An independent Scotland would have spent and borrowed if necessary according to Scotland's needs, not Westminster's needs.
Almost every developed country has been running a budget deficit for many years.
Don't quote dodgy figures which don't include all Scotland's revenues but include a share of Westminster's expenses on illegal wars and weapons of mass destruction, not to mention the unelected House of Lords where the likes of Lord 'Bomb Edinburgh & Glasgow airports' Fraser of Carmyllie claim £300 per day in expenses for just turning up.
IF AND ONLY IF you want to know the TRUTH about what revenues Scotland has contributed to the Westminster Treasury, look here:
WARNING: NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/
http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-the-oil-the-deluge/
Frankly, if your response to 'lie number 9' contains as many untruths as the ramblings surrounding 'lie number 6' you may as well save yourself the bother.
Laughable.
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