Are we becoming more morally conservative again?
I sometimes feel like this country is steadily becoming more puritanical.
I often hear men talking about how women wear too little on nights out, or how girls wearing mini-skirts are sluts. Mini-skirts were all the rage in the 60s, but now they're taboo? What's happening here? Are we slipping back into the horrible dogma of our Christian past?
Alongside this, Islam is becoming increasingly popular and accepted in the UK, and many people seem to hold the idea that this ideology is honorable due to its moral conservatism and its focus on its idea of purity.
Many feminists spout about lads mags, Page 3, pornography, or strip clubs being detrimental to society. I can't help but suspect that the underlying reason for their disdain of these things has little to do with ethics, but is instead driven by a level of puritanism in their characters.
Across the internet, their seems to be an increasing movement of conservatism. A desire to go back to old Christian values, where women are quiet and subordinate, and men are strong and go out to work. There is also increasing support for parties such as UKIP.
Of course many of these things are very much at odds with each other, but I consider them all to be driven by the same thing, which is that people are becoming more puritanical.
Thoughts?
I often hear men talking about how women wear too little on nights out, or how girls wearing mini-skirts are sluts. Mini-skirts were all the rage in the 60s, but now they're taboo? What's happening here? Are we slipping back into the horrible dogma of our Christian past?
Alongside this, Islam is becoming increasingly popular and accepted in the UK, and many people seem to hold the idea that this ideology is honorable due to its moral conservatism and its focus on its idea of purity.
Many feminists spout about lads mags, Page 3, pornography, or strip clubs being detrimental to society. I can't help but suspect that the underlying reason for their disdain of these things has little to do with ethics, but is instead driven by a level of puritanism in their characters.
Across the internet, their seems to be an increasing movement of conservatism. A desire to go back to old Christian values, where women are quiet and subordinate, and men are strong and go out to work. There is also increasing support for parties such as UKIP.
Of course many of these things are very much at odds with each other, but I consider them all to be driven by the same thing, which is that people are becoming more puritanical.
Thoughts?
(edited 10 years ago)
not really just vocal minorities.
Original post by brap man 420
not really just vocal minorities.
Is that really true though? Mini-skirts most definitely are considered more slutty than they were in the 60s, and I often hear people complain about how women don't cover themselves up enough on nights out.
Islam IS becoming more popular and accepted in this country.
And the 'No More Page 3' movement IS quite popular. And The Guardian's celebration of Nuts being banned was similar to how I'd imagine Westboro Baptist church would react to the news.
And UKIP most definitely is gaining a lot of votes atm.
Original post by KingBradly
Is that really true though? Mini-skirts most definitely are considered more slutty than they were in the 60s, and I often hear people complain about how women don't cover themselves up enough on nights out.
Islam IS becoming more popular and accepted in this country.
And the 'No More Page 3' movement IS quite popular. And The Guardian's celebration of Nuts being banned was similar to how I'd imagine Westboro Baptist church would react to the news.
And UKIP most definitely is gaining a lot of votes atm.
Islam IS becoming more popular and accepted in this country.
And the 'No More Page 3' movement IS quite popular. And The Guardian's celebration of Nuts being banned was similar to how I'd imagine Westboro Baptist church would react to the news.
And UKIP most definitely is gaining a lot of votes atm.
a) That's not really conservatism just a bit of healthy common sense that showing your legs might be looking a bit slutty :/
b) I don't like Islam and most people I speak to don't (look at this forum).
c) The guardian are fortunately a vocal minority of losers, but the idea of them being consevative is a bit iffy.
d) yeah but thats due to the financial crash
Original post by KingBradly
Is that really true though? Mini-skirts most definitely are considered more slutty than they were in the 60s, and I often hear people complain about how women don't cover themselves up enough on nights out.
Islam IS becoming more popular and accepted in this country.
And the 'No More Page 3' movement IS quite popular. And The Guardian's celebration of Nuts being banned was similar to how I'd imagine Westboro Baptist church would react to the news.
And UKIP most definitely is gaining a lot of votes atm.
Islam IS becoming more popular and accepted in this country.
And the 'No More Page 3' movement IS quite popular. And The Guardian's celebration of Nuts being banned was similar to how I'd imagine Westboro Baptist church would react to the news.
And UKIP most definitely is gaining a lot of votes atm.
I wasn't alive in the 1960s, nor am I an expert on the culture of the time. I'd question the idea that mini-skirts were more acceptable then. I would've thought that they were frowned upon much more heavily than they are now.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578666-britains-youth-are-not-just-more-liberal-their-elders-they-are-also-more-liberal-any
The report mentioned in that Economist article suggests that young people are becoming more liberal than our parents.
Original post by brap man 420
a) That's not really conservatism just a bit of healthy common sense that showing your legs might be looking a bit slutty :/
b) I don't like Islam and most people I speak to don't (look at this forum).
c) The guardian are fortunately a vocal minority of losers, but the idea of them being consevative is a bit iffy.
d) yeah but thats due to the financial crash
b) I don't like Islam and most people I speak to don't (look at this forum).
c) The guardian are fortunately a vocal minority of losers, but the idea of them being consevative is a bit iffy.
d) yeah but thats due to the financial crash
So because it makes sense to you, it's not conservatism? Because it's due to the financial market, it's not conservatism?
However an idea became popular is irrelevant to it's relation to ideology. As is an idea's validity.
Shorts for men was the thing back in the day but they're taboo too now.
I don't see the problem with many of the things you've mentioned and how they relate to what I feel you're insinuating is "progress".
You've then fixed your argument to this alternative which is not entirely the case either; fallacy of the false alternative.
I don't see the problem with many of the things you've mentioned and how they relate to what I feel you're insinuating is "progress".
Original post by KingBradly
A desire to go back to old Christian values, where women are quiet and subordinate, and men are strong and go out to work. There is also increasing support for parties such as UKIP.
You've then fixed your argument to this alternative which is not entirely the case either; fallacy of the false alternative.
Original post by PythianLegume
I wasn't alive in the 1960s, nor am I an expert on the culture of the time. I'd question the idea that mini-skirts were more acceptable then. I would've thought that they were frowned upon much more heavily than they are now.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578666-britains-youth-are-not-just-more-liberal-their-elders-they-are-also-more-liberal-any
The report mentioned in that Economist article suggests that young people are becoming more liberal than our parents.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578666-britains-youth-are-not-just-more-liberal-their-elders-they-are-also-more-liberal-any
The report mentioned in that Economist article suggests that young people are becoming more liberal than our parents.
That article is encouraging. Mini-skirts became extremely popular in the UK during the 60s. Women saw wearing them as empowering. Although the older generations may not of liked them much, there is no doubt the popularity of them peaked in the 60s.
Original post by TheGrinningSkull
Shorts for men was the thing back in the day but they're taboo too now.
Men wearing shorts is not 'taboo'. It may be unfashionable, but that isn't the same thing. Men do not get called sluts for wearing shorts.
Original post by TheGrinningSkull
I don't see the problem with many of the things you've mentioned and how they relate to what I feel you're insinuating is "progress".
.
I don't see the problem with many of the things you've mentioned and how they relate to what I feel you're insinuating is "progress".
.
I'm not asking you to have a problem with them. I have a problem with them, but that's auxiliary. But the fact you don't have a problem with them only goes to prove that my statement is correct, and that moral conservatism is in fact becoming more fashionable.
I'm undecided.
Original post by brap man 420
a) That's not really conservatism just a bit of healthy common sense that showing your legs might be looking a bit slutty :/
The idea that a women showing her legs is 'slutty' is very conservative.
Original post by brap man 420
b) I don't like Islam and most people I speak to don't (look at this forum).
b) I don't like Islam and most people I speak to don't (look at this forum).
I still see far more defense for Islam on this forum than it deserves.
Original post by brap man 420
c) The guardian are fortunately a vocal minority of losers, but the idea of them being consevative is a bit iffy.
c) The guardian are fortunately a vocal minority of losers, but the idea of them being consevative is a bit iffy.
I don't care about the fashionable ideas of what conservative and liberal are. Their true definitions remain the same. I have seen the Guardian complain various times about media 'objectifying' women, asking for Page 3 to be banned, praising Iceland for is strip club ban, and often having censorious attitudes towards people being allowed to have opinions. This is moral conservatism, which ever way you put it. I would consider it puritanical.
Original post by brap man 420
d) yeah but thats due to the financial crash
d) yeah but thats due to the financial crash
Conservatism and financial crashes often go hand in hand, so that wouldn't go against my point.
(edited 10 years ago)
Original post by Sai4
Can't say I've noticed it myself, but if it is happening its a welcome change.
People like you kind of prove its true.
You post a picture of yourself topless with your abs out and then want women to dress more conservatively.
Gay marriage has just been made legal...by a conservative party too
Perhaps, the fact that since 1997 UK politics has converged to a centre-right point with little alternative option could well play a point.
I'd disagree overall though. The point your making is something that goes on in all societies. There will always be a cultural divide between young people and their parents generation, although this divide is not always strictly age dependent in terms of what category you fall into. Young people that have grown up in Britain nowadays only know multicultural Britain and are more accepting of other religions/cultures as well as on issues such as homosexuality. Polls have shown younger people see immigration as a much less significant problem than older. Your point of more people accepting Islam as part of British culture doesn't really back up your point, if anything it shows a more liberal and accepting society, which can only be a good thing in my opinion.
As for increased support for UKIP, I'm not sure that's a truly cultural change. I'd say it's a political party trying to take advantage of the current state of politics in the UK where there is a distrust and general disenfranchisement with government by supporting simplistic views that people want to hear. I think if many knew what they were really supporting and the implications it would have UKIP would not be so popular.
As for your points on increased antifeminism, it's not something I've noticed. If anything, albeit gradually, gender equality is improving.
I'd disagree overall though. The point your making is something that goes on in all societies. There will always be a cultural divide between young people and their parents generation, although this divide is not always strictly age dependent in terms of what category you fall into. Young people that have grown up in Britain nowadays only know multicultural Britain and are more accepting of other religions/cultures as well as on issues such as homosexuality. Polls have shown younger people see immigration as a much less significant problem than older. Your point of more people accepting Islam as part of British culture doesn't really back up your point, if anything it shows a more liberal and accepting society, which can only be a good thing in my opinion.
As for increased support for UKIP, I'm not sure that's a truly cultural change. I'd say it's a political party trying to take advantage of the current state of politics in the UK where there is a distrust and general disenfranchisement with government by supporting simplistic views that people want to hear. I think if many knew what they were really supporting and the implications it would have UKIP would not be so popular.
As for your points on increased antifeminism, it's not something I've noticed. If anything, albeit gradually, gender equality is improving.
Original post by Gilbert56
Perhaps, the fact that since 1997 UK politics has converged to a centre-right point with little alternative option could well play a point.
I'd disagree overall though. The point your making is something that goes on in all societies. There will always be a cultural divide between young people and their parents generation, although this divide is not always strictly age dependent in terms of what category you fall into. Young people that have grown up in Britain nowadays only know multicultural Britain and are more accepting of other religions/cultures as well as on issues such as homosexuality. Polls have shown younger people see immigration as a much less significant problem than older. Your point of more people accepting Islam as part of British culture doesn't really back up your point, if anything it shows a more liberal and accepting society, which can only be a good thing in my opinion.
I'd disagree overall though. The point your making is something that goes on in all societies. There will always be a cultural divide between young people and their parents generation, although this divide is not always strictly age dependent in terms of what category you fall into. Young people that have grown up in Britain nowadays only know multicultural Britain and are more accepting of other religions/cultures as well as on issues such as homosexuality. Polls have shown younger people see immigration as a much less significant problem than older. Your point of more people accepting Islam as part of British culture doesn't really back up your point, if anything it shows a more liberal and accepting society, which can only be a good thing in my opinion.
I understand that acceptance of different cultures is liberal, but so-called liberals often seem happy to actively defend Islam, despite it being a very right-wing ideology.
Original post by Gilbert56
As for increased support for UKIP, I'm not sure that's a truly cultural change. I'd say it's a political party trying to take advantage of the current state of politics in the UK where there is a distrust and general disenfranchisement with government by supporting simplistic views that people want to hear. I think if many knew what they were really supporting and the implications it would have UKIP would not be so popular.
As for your points on increased antifeminism, it's not something I've noticed. If anything, albeit gradually, gender equality is improving.
As for increased support for UKIP, I'm not sure that's a truly cultural change. I'd say it's a political party trying to take advantage of the current state of politics in the UK where there is a distrust and general disenfranchisement with government by supporting simplistic views that people want to hear. I think if many knew what they were really supporting and the implications it would have UKIP would not be so popular.
As for your points on increased antifeminism, it's not something I've noticed. If anything, albeit gradually, gender equality is improving.
Both the feminist and anti-feminist sides often seem quite puritanical. The feminists often want porn, strip clubs, or page 3 to be banned, while many of the anti-feminists seem to want women to stay indoors and have kids.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by KingBradly
I'm not asking you to have a problem with them. I have a problem with them, but that's auxiliary. But the fact you don't have a problem with them only goes to prove that my statement is correct, and that moral conservatism is in fact becoming more fashionable.
I'm not asking you to have a problem with them. I have a problem with them, but that's auxiliary. But the fact you don't have a problem with them only goes to prove that my statement is correct, and that moral conservatism is in fact becoming more fashionable.
But is this moral conservatism such a bad thing? What are the real negatives in such views?
Women can wear as little clothing as they want as far as I am concerned 
Live and let live is my philosophy.
Live and let live is my philosophy.
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